France to vote non on EU constitution

[Pekka]

No it hasn't. What is it? tell me what it is then? This is like saying, well, the conversatives with conscious developed over two weeks and now we have better ideas and moral grounds for every social issue there is against anyone else, because we say so.

That just simply isn't true paiktis, no matter how hard you want to believe in it. This is what the doctors would call a placebo.

[Lancer]

"lance be sure you dont believe simply what you want to believe!"

I don't want to believe this, but I can't deny it. That would be dishonest.

I'm just glad you euros skip a few generations now and again before whacking each other by the millions... Many thanks for this.

Though I guess any parents of pilots lost over Serbia might take exception to that statement.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Lancer
"lance be sure you dont believe simply what you want to believe!"

I don't want to believe this, but I can't deny it. That would be dishonest.

I'm just glad you euros skip a few generations now and again before whacking each other by the millions... Many thanks for this.

Though I guess any parents of pilots lost over Serbia might take exception to that statement.

oh boy. you know they are many different POVs that are hugely different but as efficient and wide spread as yours

[Pekka]

"90% of the Europeans feel a closer bond to their national identity than to Europe. Among them, a half doesn't feel European at all (source: 2000)"

Sounds about right.

So what was the common identity? Do you realize it's ****ing impossible to have common identity? Do you realize we are different people from different cultures etc etc etc? WHAT - COMMON - IDENTITY?

[DanS]

Spiffor: That looks to me like it gives everybody ample wiggle room to do what they want to do with regard to common defense and doesn't specify spending levels.

But of course I wonder why such language is even in a constitution. Defense treaties may come and go. Defensive or offensive measures may change from time to time, as required. As we have discussed, those are the kinds of objections I have with the constitution. It's not durable.

[Lancer]

Common european identity?

Thanks for that. I have to go to work soon and that will have me chuckling all day.

[Lancer]

"oh boy. you know they are many different POVs that are hugely different but as efficient and wide spread as yours "

Sure, we can all hope for a better future.

[Pekka]

yeah, I mean albanians, croats and serbs... germans vs everyone else, french vs everyone else too, UK vs everyone else, greece and turkey.. the north and the south, we are just so same. Dude.. wtf? There is no common factor. Nothing.

Save the 'we are the world crap'.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Spiffor
90% of the Europeans feel a closer bond to their national identity than to Europe. Among them, a half doesn't feel European at all (source: 2000)

I saw a poll on BBC like that a few months ago listing all the different nationalities and whether they considered themselves European, but I haven't been able to find it since then.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Pekka
yeah, I mean albanians, croats and serbs... germans vs everyone else, french vs everyone else too, UK vs everyone else, greece and turkey.. the north and the south, we are just so same. Dude.. wtf? There is no common factor. Nothing.

Save the 'we are the world crap'.

oh but it exists pekka

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
So what was the common identity? Do you realize it's ****ing impossible to have common identity? Do you realize we are different people from different cultures etc etc etc? WHAT - COMMON - IDENTITY?

Collective identities, be they nationality-based, village-based, football-team based, or political ideology-based, are often artificial. A European collective identity isn't fiction: actually, 55% of the Europeans had it to some extent in 2000, and the figure has probably grown since then, as we now have euro coins in our pockets.

A collective identity can be created with the appropriate cultural/symbolic policy. Good flag, good anthem, permanent repetition of identity symbols (currency is efficient), and other things can do the trick.

France is a typical example of a successful artificial collective identity. It took centuries to make it prevalent on the whole territory, but it does work.

[Lancer]

The Italians are universally loved in europe, yes? I guess, I really don't know. Any euros can answer this for me?

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Lancer
The Italians are universally loved in europe, yes? I guess, I really don't know. Any euros can answer this for me?

I'm not Euro, but I'm willing to love them...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
Spiffor: That looks to me like it gives everybody ample wiggle room to do what they want to do with regard to common defense and doesn't specify spending levels.

It is open to interpetation, but not that much. It is clear that the EU common defense policy cannot go against NATO (which is a big duh anyway, because the EU common defense policy requires consensus to get anything done). And it is clear that countries are not welcome to let their militaries rot. In particular, if a country reduces its military spending, such action could be deemed as unconstitutional.

But of course I wonder why such language is even in a constitution. Defense treaties may come and go. Defensive or offensive measures may change from time to time, as required. As we have discussed, those are the kinds of objections I have with the constitution. It's not durable.

Agreed. This is the reason why I oppose this constitution as well. The fact that the content of the text sucks (to my perspective as a French leftist, at least) only adds to it. Had the overly-detailed constitution been full of good policies, I might have voted for it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lancer
The Italians are universally loved in europe, yes? I guess, I really don't know. Any euros can answer this for me?

What? These thieves, these arrogant crooks and con-men?