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  • Originally posted by Spiffor

    Actually, I think that the Europeans must decide on their general visions for the future fo the Union before a constitution is drafted.

    I don't think that so many European countries want political integration. At least, some countries (Britain, Denmark, Poland) are very adamant about their sovereignty, and I don't think it'll change.

    If the constitution is rejected by the people, I actually expect the European political elites to ask the real questions about the future of Europe, and to acknowledge the deep division among countries on that issue. The reason why our European institutions are nearly stuck is because we can't "agree to disagree", which is something the EU dramatically needs.

    I think that our European elites will finally be forced to "agree to disagree" if France and Britain (and maybe Poland) reject the constitution, especially for different reasons. The issue has been hinted enough in the past (actually, there are occasional talks about it since Maastricht), but it has never been dealt with seriously.

    If we finally agree to disagree, maybe the pro-political Europe will stop dragging the reluctant British along. And maybe the British will stop hindering the trailblazing European countries.
    Placed under that light I on principal would agree. That how ever would mean opening the way for a 2 speed EU. But maybe that's better. In any case it is a completely new on going experiment. Can't know till you try

    However these days I'm not so concerned with further integration as I am with the politico-economic direction the Commission is taking. I think it is far too liberal and since the EU countries have given away a very large part of their sovereignity ecnomically speaking I think its role and direction is critical and affects me directly. I have a feeling the Commission has been breached with too much liberalism in its policies. In short I see a "Europe of capital" being more and more created instead of the "Europe of peoples". Of course there's a universal swift towards neoliberalism but I think the Commission dances dangerously close to being detrimental to a wide arrey of social wins of the past.
    But anyway I see your point. A constitution that would lead the way for the integration not to be so burdened by the "unwilling".

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Oerdin


      That country has a shared culture and national language.
      Which culture would that be exactly?

      Oh and you're talking 'bout Spanish, right?
      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
      Then why call him God? - Epicurus

      Comment


      • Originally posted by paiktis22
        However these days I'm not so concerned with further integration as I am with the politico-economic direction the Commission is taking. I think it is far too liberal
        The two are closely related. Did you know that the Lisboa agenda (an extremely liberal 10-year plan) was decided when most European governments were left-of-centre, including the most important ones (France, Germany, Britain)?

        The reason is not because these people have thatcherite ideologies, but because the very system as it is now doesn't permit to have ambitious policies that harmonize toward the top. In order to reach a compromise between the many different countries, we always need to dumb down any ambition to the smallest common denominator. Ultraliberalism. Even when most countries oppose it.

        The treaty of Nice was especially appalling in this regard. It was supposed to be a grandiose thing, and it ended up only negociating how many seats Poland and Spain would hold in the Council This is because of Nice's utter failure that they called the convention. And the convention has done an almost decent job at providing some change in the EU (because the rules weren't decided by diplomats representing the short term interests of their individual government, but because the rules were decided by a supranational body, even though it was very imperfect).
        "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
        "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
        "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Spiffor

          The two are closely related. Did you know that the Lisboa agenda (an extremely liberal 10-year plan) was decided when most European governments were left-of-centre, including the most important ones (France, Germany, Britain)?
          Yep but I thought its main objective was to "increase european competition". I suppose that's a well shaped saying to push forward more liberalism. As is that ugly "flexible workmarket" saying.

          The reason is not because these people have thatcherite ideologies, but because the very system as it is now doesn't permit to have ambitious policies that harmonize toward the top. In order to reach a compromise between the many different countries, we always need to dumb down any ambition to the smallest common denominator. Ultraliberalism. Even when most countries oppose it.
          Is that the reason? I don't know... Could be. Maybe the least common denominator of most EU countries is liberalism. But do you think that was the case when the Lisboa Agenda was negotiated? With so many social democracies? But could be.

          IMO the recent failure of the european social democratic governments to live up to their social promises has created a sort of "stunned paralysis" in the creation of new social and economic policiesthat are tuned to provide for the people. The neoliberal model is more free than before to push for changes towards anti-social policies. Playing without real adversary for the moement In levels where the democratic deficit is more pronounced like in the Commission, I think it shows even more and is as or more capable of impact as a national government.
          Last edited by Bereta_Eder; May 26, 2005, 19:23.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lord of the mark


            absolutely.

            The immigration experience, the public school system, the desire of the children of immigrants to fit in, to move up, to get away from the ways of their "embarrassing" immigrant parents, is almost cliche over here. Americans of european origin only started really celebratring"ethnicity" when it was dilute enough to not be dangerous.
            I didn't mean that. I meaned that I think there wasn't a single cultural identity in the beginning of the US.
            Blah

            Comment


            • you people are just stupid. I think I can prove it with academic research. FACT.
              In da butt.
              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

              Comment


              • Blah

                Comment


                • BeBro, I heard the Bundesrat voted for the constitution today. Was there any significant debate in Germany on the issue, or was the opposition to the project barely mentioned in the media?
                  "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                  "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                  "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                  Comment


                  • It's rare to hear high flying BS as fact. There are theories, there are ideals, utopias and ideologies. But there's no such thing as european identity. SURE, Europe is Europe. If you are in Europe, you are in Europe. And in Europe there are Europeans. You guys make it sound like there's more into it than the obvious. Identity is a little bit more than that.

                    If you travel in here, of course it's 'similar' in a way. We are in the west. Things tend to be similar in here. But that's where it ends. And just because some folks have a feeling they are in Europe when they are.. well.. DUH? What you want.. a ****ing medal for the obvious?
                    In da butt.
                    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Spiffor
                      BeBro, I heard the Bundesrat voted for the constitution today. Was there any significant debate in Germany on the issue, or was the opposition to the project barely mentioned in the media?
                      So far I read opposition was mentioned, although hardly the military problem you spoke of earlier. Most concerns were about a further loss of souvereignty (sp), fears of an EU too powerful over national parliaments, more bureaucracy etc.

                      But yes, it wasn't really a biiig debate, most concerns were voiced in the media in the last weeks before the decision was made. A public referendum would have certainly caused a much bigger debate.....
                      Blah

                      Comment


                      • at least you have debate. IN here leftist traitors are making sure there is no debate, no vote, and nothing of the democratic nature about the thing. They also make sure no one has ever heard about the constitution. Because they already want to decide for you. That's their motto, anti-freedom.
                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pekka
                          It's rare to hear high flying BS as fact. There are theories, there are ideals, utopias and ideologies. But there's no such thing as european identity. SURE, Europe is Europe. If you are in Europe, you are in Europe. And in Europe there are Europeans. You guys make it sound like there's more into it than the obvious. Identity is a little bit more than that.

                          If you travel in here, of course it's 'similar' in a way. We are in the west. Things tend to be similar in here. But that's where it ends. And just because some folks have a feeling they are in Europe when they are.. well.. DUH? What you want.. a ****ing medal for the obvious?
                          If I follow you, common identity does reflect the similarities. So common identity reflects differences. Could you describe what make the Finns so different from other Europeans that they will never recognize that they share with them common values?
                          Statistical anomaly.
                          The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

                          Comment


                          • They ain't indo-Europeans, these little ****ers
                            "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                            "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                            "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Spiffor
                              They ain't indo-Europeans, these little ****ers
                              You mean that non Indo-European are not really human?
                              Statistical anomaly.
                              The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

                              Comment


                              • You mean, you don't hate these people's guts?
                                "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                                "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                                "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                                Comment

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