Permitting immigration to relieve wage pressures is not liberal

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by MikeH
We should have no barriers to immigration or worker movement anywhere in the world for any reason, that's the liberal free market thing to do.

[Lancer]

"Good point. I said something similar about a year ago. Emigration hits the third world hard - what's the point in educating someone who will not repay the investment. Hence underinvestment in education in developing countries."

Those people remit alot of money though. The Philippines recieves close to 40% of its foriegn capital from remitances.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Lancer
"Good point. I said something similar about a year ago. Emigration hits the third world hard - what's the point in educating someone who will not repay the investment. Hence underinvestment in education in developing countries."

Those people remit alot of money though. The Philippines recieves close to 40% of its foriegn capital from remitances.

Yes, but it makes no difference. While a huge amount of money is sent home to the Phils from overseas, almost all of it gets spend on non-durable consumer goods (e.g., more San Miguel for Uncle Bing and his pals). It does not tranlsate at all into either savings or investment, which is why the Phils are so completely f*cked.

(I actually had the dubious pleasure recently of reading a Filipina's annulment certificate. Her chief complaint was that she had spent the last 20 years working her ass off as a nurse in Saudi Arabia and sending home every last penny she could spare; when she finally returned home, she discovered that the family had blown through all the money and had nothing to show for it. She was emigrating to the US without them; good for her!)

The thing about 3rd World immigration is this, if the Phils are any measure: yes, it does f*ck 3rd World countries, in two ways. First, it creates a massive brain drain; for example, except for recent graduates, I doubt there are very many qualified nurses left in the Philippines, and we've actually seen a frightening number of Filipino doctors leaving here to take nursing jobs in the US (why? because the average Philippine monthly wage for a doctor is $400-500 -- an amount that the average US nurse earns in 2-3 days). Second, and not unrelated to this, it evacuates the middle class from a country, which makes a democratic society nearly impossible to establish or maintain.

On the other hand, it benefits both the countries the immigrants go to and the immigrants themselves. So the question is, which do you care more about?

[Odin]

Originally posted by St Leo


One Big Union.

Wobblies:

[Lancer]

Alot of those people go home after, Rufus. Also, Dolores and I have built a nice house there, as do many. This provides work for builders, materials suppliers and manufacturers. When we visit we go out to eat, buy pigs and furniture and all sorts of stuff. Helps the economy and provides jobs. Also, the $ we send home now goes for food for the family. Very little for booze and cigs. If we didn't send it these people wouldn't be eating... much.

So, try not to always see the bad in the situation Rufus. I know there's alot but...you really need to make it to Bohol next time we're there. Might change your perception.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Lancer
Alot of those people go home after, Rufus. Also, Dolores and I have built a nice house there, as do many. This provides work for builders, materials suppliers and manufacturers. When we visit we go out to eat, buy pigs and furniture and all sorts of stuff. Helps the economy and provides jobs. Also, the $ we send home now goes for food for the family. Very little for booze and cigs. If we didn't send it these people wouldn't be eating... much.

So, try not to always see the bad in the situation Rufus. I know there's alot but...you really need to make it to Bohol next time we're there. Might change your perception.

Lancer, there's a lot to like about the Phils, first and foremost being the Filipinos themselves. But in cold economic terms, the overseas remittances haven't actually helped pull this place up at all, which is why it's been losing ground to every other country in Southeast Asia. All they've done is create an entire country that seems determined to be some other, more prosperous country's service sector. That's a way for some people to make it out of here; it may even be a way to help some people here have slightly nicer stuff; but its not the way to make the society itself more prosperous or stoip its 40-year downward slide.

[Lancer]

Sure, it's a mess. They need to stop having so many children. Too many for the islands to support. Buuut...the Catholic church needs to wake the hell up and stop fighting birth control.

[RGBVideo]

A minimum wage is hardly free market and liberal!

You're right, no it isn't.

Even trying to alter the wage levels of a nation by limiting immigration or the movement of the people instead of letting the global market to decide is hardly free market and liberal.

[Urban Ranger]

"Free market" is a myth.

[DaShi]

Thank you for your contribution. We'll add it to the pile.

[el freako]

Originally posted by Park Avenue
Good point. I said something similar about a year ago. Emigration hits the third world hard - what's the point in educating someone who will not repay the investment. Hence underinvestment in education in developing countries.

Third world countries actually invest too much in (tertiary) education they would get far better economic returns by plouging the cash wasted subsidising on the politically influential urban elite's children through university into primary and seconday education for the rural poor (women especially).

But PA's argument speaks to the contradiction at the heart of the Nation State.
The nation state originally came into existance due to the pressures to provide property rights and rule of law - however as it does this only over a specific geographic area then it is becoming increasingly hard to reconcile the sovereignty of the nation-state with the desire of it's citizens to have freedom of trade globally.

This is one reason why I think that the european experiment of pooled sovereignty is one of the most important political developments of the past couple of centuries.

[Provost Harrison]

I quite agree with you El Freako, the nation is such an outmoded concept, yet it is still efficiently used as a political tool.

And I see Stew has returned...I was hoping I had seen the last of him...

[Kuciwalker]

This is one reason why I think that the european experiment of pooled sovereignty is one of the most important political developments of the past couple of centuries.

Eh, it's nothing new. We went through all that over 200 years ago. Get with the times, Europe

[Ecthy]

Get with the times, fellow Europeans. We must build more houses with 7 bathrooms

[Ben Kenobi]

Sure, it's a mess. They need to stop having so many children. Too many for the islands to support. Buuut...the Catholic church needs to wake the hell up and stop fighting birth control.

Why?

Global population under a medium projection, by 2050. is projected to fall.