Danish PM calls for Russia to apologize to Baltics

[Lancer]

"it depends on your point of view. if you were an east german with a belief in the socialist model you'd say that west berlin is occupied/unfree. that's what i'm saying."

Interesting. Do you think many East Germans held this view?

BeBro

[Pekka]

So now they claim they never occupied... so, the recent trend of making the history what it used to be in propaganda, if that's not worrying to you, then nothing is. I say keep your eyes open.

'but techn..' SHTU UP! they were occupied, PERIOD.

[JohnT]

Today, Bush apologized for the Yalta agreements (comparing it to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreements and the Munich "appeasement" pact) between the US and the USSR that split Europe in two:

As we mark a victory of six days ago -- six decades ago, we are mindful of a paradox. For much of Germany, defeat led to freedom. For much of Eastern and Central Europe, victory brought the iron rule of another empire. V-E Day marked the end of fascism, but it did not end oppression. The agreement at Yalta followed in the unjust tradition of Munich and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Once again, when powerful governments negotiated, the freedom of small nations was somehow expendable. Yet this attempt to sacrifice freedom for the sake of stability left a continent divided and unstable. The captivity of millions in Central and Eastern Europe will be remembered as one of the greatest wrongs of history.

[Lancer]

paiktis, actually MtG was in West Berlin, I was in Bamburg and Hof, which was at the border in with East Germany.

JohnT, excellent quote, thanks for that. GWB!

[Pekka]

Excellent words. He could have gotten around it more easily, but he took the right road, which is to face the facts that were difficult to everyone, and just say like it was. Yeah.. good words Dubya also showing support for our Baltic friends Good words, good words. Maybe those are the best words I've ever read to describe the situation, so for the one who wrote the words and for dubya pronouncing them correctly And here's one for me

[Lancer]

Pekka

[BlackCat]

Nah, he is just repeating what the danish PM has expressed.

After all, it is comon knowledge that Bush isn't able of neither think a peronal view, neither express such one.

[Fake Boris]

How low can Bush go?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
How low can Bush go?

The whole way down to the level of what a democratic president would go ?

[DanS]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Nah, he is just repeating what the danish PM has expressed.

After all, it is comon knowledge that Bush isn't able of neither think a peronal view, neither express such one.

The Danes weren't a party to Yalta. That's the difference in the power of the words.

Yalta was a big American mistake, which led to the oppression of Central and Eastern Europe. It's important to ackowledge that as a mistake.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by DanS


The Danes weren't a party to Yalta. That's the difference in the power of the words.

Yalta was a big American mistake, which led to the oppression of Central and Eastern Europe. It's important to ackowledge that as a mistake.

I am quite aware of the fact that Denmark wasn't a part of the Yalta agreement - actualy it would have been a joke if we had been a part of it.

You may think that Yalta wa a big mistake, and it'seasy to think that wa after the end of WWII, but Yalta was before.

The Yalta agreement was a result of current power, and the only way to hange that would have been a war between Soviet and the rest of the Alliance. Such a war could have been won, but after 4-6 years of war I don't think that a couple more of war was in the current leaders mind.

[Winston]

That doesn't change the fact though, that half a continent was left to suffer against their will under Communism - for close to half a century.

Freedom of all people isn't something you should just pursue as your goal when it feels convenient.

And I applaud President Bush for having the guts to say it like it is.

BTW, in many cases at Yalta - and in other dealings with the Russians, Churchill was the one who most clearly recognized the Soviet intentions for Eastern Europe when the war would end. Roosevelt weakened the Western negotiating position early on by revealing that in his opinion, 2 years after V-E would be the upper limit for how long the United States could keep an army standing in Europe. This statement must have pleased Stalin immensely, whereas Churchill was shocked and remarked "I do hope that would depend on the circumstances."

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pekka
Excellent words. He could have gotten around it more easily, but he took the right road, which is to face the facts that were difficult to everyone, and just say like it was. Yeah.. good words Dubya also showing support for our Baltic friends Good words, good words. Maybe those are the best words I've ever read to describe the situation, so for the one who wrote the words and for dubya pronouncing them correctly And here's one for me

Pekka, thanks, in a way. I just wish you could honestly thank Bush someday and not include in your thanks some backhanded gibe.

I remember the opponents of Reagan saying the very same kind of things about him as you just did about Bush. They called him a cowboy. They say he didn't write the speeches he gave and that he was some sort of puppet to dark forces nobody knew about but it was certainly calling all the shots and writing speeches.

But turns out that we have handwritten copies of the speeches that Reagan gave and he wrote the speeches himself. I am not going to suggest here that Bush writes his own speeches. But, certainty he tells the speechwriters what he wants to say and he has approval on the final text. So even if the exact words are not Bush's, those words express what he intends to say.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
But turns out that we have handwritten copies of the speeches that Reagan gave and he wrote the speeches himself.

No you don't. The Reagan Whitehouse openly used speachwriters.

[Ned]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Nah, he is just repeating what the danish PM has expressed.

After all, it is comon knowledge that Bush isn't able of neither think a peronal view, neither express such one.

What is true is that Europeans are so full of it that they cannot accept what they see if what they see is clear is glaringly inconsistent with the propaganda they've been fed by the media and general, common-think of liberalism. Bush is the leader he appears to be and is far more intelligent and perceptive than any in on the left will concede because those on the left are apparently more concerned about their propaganda than about honesty.