There is a new Pope

[Bill3000]

That poll seriously doesn't suprise me. As I had said before, my family is traditionally Catholic, and are seriously bothered by the stance of the entire Catholic church. PRH, my family had stopped going to church despite the fact that they *ARE* religious.


The only reason why American Catholics are still Catholic are for one reason - tradition. If the Roman Catholic Church were to seriously excommunicate Catholics who don't follow their teachings, America would probably have pretty much no Catlothics. Incoming schism! Or something.

A good reasoning to why American Calothics are different like this is because they tend to be more liberal; considering the fact that most persecuted peoples in America tend to be more liberal (Because they want to stop their own persecution), this is an easy way to see how this is a problem in America.

[Ned]

The central problem with the Latin branch of the Church is that it has always been too severe on sin, particularly, sexuality, demanding celibacy of its priests and chastity, not just faithfulness, of its flock. One can go back in history to see how other branches of the Church perceived the Latin church -- extremists, or in today's vernacular, fundamentalists.

Do you know that for a millenia the Latin church actually taught there was no forgiveness for sins? The concept of confession and remission was introduced from the Irish church. Later, the Church invented temporal indulgences, which turned the Church into a center for corruption that lead to the reformation.

But the extremist views on sex have lead directly, in my view, to a lack of faith in the European and American laity, and certainly have lead to pedophilia, rape of young girls, and nortorious womanizing by priests over the millenia that have more than harmed the church's reputation, it has lead to a loss of faith by many.

The new pope should pause and consider where the Latin Church's extremism has brought it. As the press grows freeer, the crimes and corruption of the priesthood can no longer be covered up. It is time for reform.

[Ned]

Bill3000, your post about American Catholics about sums it up. The are content to live with heresy and still call themselves Catholic. I am "Catholic," but I am not a hypocrite. I think, no I know, the Church is way off the beaten path on dogma, particularly on sex. I now and then go to church with my family because they ask me to. But I refuse to cooperate with the Church by accepting communion from them. I am a heretic, in their view, and I am proud of it.

[Bill3000]

Originally posted by Ned
Bill3000, your post about American Catholics about sums it up. The are content to live with heresy and still call themselves Catholic. I am "Catholic," but I am not a hypocrite. I think, no I know, the Church is way off the beaten path on dogma, particularly on sex. I now and then go to church with my family because they ask me to. But I refuse to cooperate with the Church by accepting communion from them. I am a heretic, in their view, and I am proud of it.

I am both confused, angsty, and relieved about the meaning behind your post.

Actually, is there a way to offically be excommunicated from the church, volentarily?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Bill3000


I am both confused, angsty, and relieved about the meaning behind your post.

Actually, is there a way to offically be excommunicated from the church, volentarily?

Such is what happened to Luther when his pleas for reform were met with hostility by the corrupt.

The new Pope says he will continue to reach out to other religions and to continue to listen to its flock. That is a good sign, IMHO.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Heresson
Yeah, right, You've seen me through

Well that is precisely what you do...

[Adalbertus]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Thought this would be the best place to put this:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/20/us.catholics.poll/index.html

Nearly three-quarters of American Catholics say they are more likely to follow their own conscience on "difficult moral questions," rather than the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI, according to a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll.

Strangely enough, in a definitely catholic publication I've read that the personal conscience has to be the supreme moral instance for a catholic, according to the corpus iuris canonici (the churches' law). Of course, this was not to be clearly related to anything specific ...


Just a few notes on being in Hitler's youth. My godfather (born in 1931) first was at a catholic school, and was sent to a public school after the confessional schools have been liquidated (i guess) in 1937 or 1938. There he had the following "conversation" when the teacher asked for the personal identity (as he has written in some sort of autobiography):
"Name?" ... " louder"
"***"
"prename?"
"***"
"born?"
"***"
"home address?"
"***"
"banner?"
"??? ... sorry?"
"I would like to learn about the Jungvolk (=Hitlerjugend) banner number Mylord pleases to adhere to, if you do not mind"
"I'm not in the Jungvolk"
"Whaat? You don't participate in the Jungvolk? Did you hear? He's not member of the Jungvolk. He doesn't need that. This is very pleasant!"

I guess this is quite well an example for being "compulsory" to be in the HJ. It was not about being executed, but more an exploitation of the lack of life experience of young people and the fact that they can be impressed by (depending on the age) bad marks in the school and being outsider.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Micha
It´s like the Wombat Priest saying you´re not longer member of the holy Eucalyptus Cult; Devastating for a Wombat-believer, but others might care little...

That reminds me. You're out.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ned
Bill3000, your post about American Catholics about sums it up. The are content to live with heresy and still call themselves Catholic. I am "Catholic," but I am not a hypocrite. I think, no I know, the Church is way off the beaten path on dogma, particularly on sex. I now and then go to church with my family because they ask me to. But I refuse to cooperate with the Church by accepting communion from them. I am a heretic, in their view, and I am proud of it.

You're not a heretic Ned - the extreme conservatives would say you have to obey canon law without question but actually the more mainstream view is that conscience mediates canon law. JP II did not overturn this. It will be interesting to see what Pope Benedict does. The catch is you are on your own in the sight of God in terms of justifying your actions.

So the reality is that many practicing catholics are in full communion with the catholic church whilst not following the church's teachings on all issues. The other major condition is that one does not publicly defy the teachings of the church - that was what upset the Vatican about Senator Kerry's prochoice stance.

[Ben Kenobi]

The only reason why American Catholics are still Catholic are for one reason - tradition. If the Roman Catholic Church were to seriously excommunicate Catholics who don't follow their teachings, America would probably have pretty much no Catlothics. Incoming schism! Or something.

Well, my point is this. If the only reason you go to a church is because you have always gone, then perhaps it's better for you to leave.

I don't see any reason behind remaining a member of a church, if you cannot accept the moral teachings of that church.

I think there are plenty of Catholics, Americans and Canadians who love the church because of their firm stance, and they are willing to serve with their whole heart.

[Ben Kenobi]

The other major condition is that one does not publicly defy the teachings of the church - that was what upset the Vatican about Senator Kerry's prochoice stance.

Fair enough, but the cost of accepting communion in an unworthy manner is not an easy one either. You are right that Christ is the one who will gage our conduct in the end, but to offend him in this manner is not wise.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I don't see any reason behind remaining a member of a church, if you cannot accept the moral teachings of that church.

Affection toward the whole thing.

The belief that the teachings are right on the big picture, and that details shouldn't derail you from your broader faith.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Fair enough, but the cost of accepting communion in an unworthy manner is not an easy one either. You are right that Christ is the one who will gage our conduct in the end, but to offend him in this manner is not wise.

A couple of things about that. One is only allowed to receive communion in a state of grace. This why there is an act of contrition at the start of mass, to prepare. The question of whether one is in a state of grace is always a matter of individual conscience. There have been occasions when I have felt unable to receive the sacrament. Cardinal Ratzinger was one who tried to re-establish orthodoxy on this - including I notice on fasting before mass. A good spiritual practice which has fallen away in recent years.

The reason communion is sometimes, but very rarely, refused to certain persons is more to do with the priest or celebrant being unable in good conscience to administer communion due to some knowledge they have of the person concerned. The Kerry example is relevant here but the common example would be something like the priest is aware that the person has divorced and remarried. Gay catholics wearing rainbow sashes were refused communion here in Australia by Cardinal Pell.

This is a very tricky area because it is not for humans to judge the state of another person's soul and I think Senator Kerry would not have had difficulty finding a priest who would administer the eucharist to him.

Jeez those nuns taught me well

[Verto]

Welcome Pope Palpatine I.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Who wouldn't want this guy as their Pope?

THAT DUDE IS BAD AZZZ