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May 16th, 3pm PST: PS3 Launches. May 16th, 6pm PST: Xbox2 Launches

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  • Originally posted by nostromo
    That means I guess that the PS3 won't be out 'till Q4 2006.

    I admit I don't understand most of the tech mumbo jumbo. They told us the Cell would have 9 cores, whereas the 360 would only have 3 of them. But now they're saying that the Cell only has one CPU, with 7 x SPE @3.2GHz. I don't have the foggiest idea what a SPE is, so...
    Do you know what a vector processor is? In effect, it's a "Single Instruction, Multiple Data" type processor -- SSE, AltiVec, etc. They work on matricies/arrays...for instance, a set of 3D coordinates.

    Vector processors are very fast at doing stuff like 3D math, physics, etc. (dumb computation stuff...straight numbercrunching) They're terrible for things such as AI, core game logic, etc. (conditional logic, branching stuff)

    SPEs are "Synergestic Processor Elements". It's a fancy name for a tiny vector processor.

    The Cell is a regular PowerPC-style processor (AFAIK, a G5/PowerPC 970) and then 8 SPEs/vector processors. The central CPU is more or less the "mother chip", and delegates work to the "daughter processors" to do the processing of vectors.

    On the PS3, one of these SPEs is disabled (for economical reasons...lets them use a higher percentage of chips produced), and another is supposedly reserved for operating system purposes, leaving 6 SPEs and 1 CPU available for developers. In effect, they can run 7 different hardware threads at once, 6 of them in vector units.

    On the Xbox 360's CPU, it's a 3.2GHz tri-core chip, each of which has a vector unit. However, each CPU can handle two threads of data at once, giving developers access to 6 hardware threads, and all 6 of them can exist in the vector units.

    The difference between the two in the real world will be minimial. The PS3 CPU will have a slight advantage in things such as physics and 3D calculations (which is useless, since the GPU does all that these days), while the X360's CPU is more balanced and can perform better with logic, AI, etc.

    IMO, the Xbox 360's design is more appropriate for the gaming console.

    The reason Sony went with Cell is they originally planned to have more than one Cell on the console, and use that to do the graphics calculations as well. They got scared of MS (in my opinion...) and called on Nvidia at the last minute to make a graphics chip. Hence the off-the-shelf part in the PS3, and the reduced number of Cells in the thing.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DanS
      Hasn't M$ had dev boxes in developers' hands for a couple years already?
      They've had PowerMac-based devkits for about a year and a half...actual Xbox360 alpha hardware since January.

      Microsoft also has a Visual Studio 2005-based IDE called "XNA Studio" that developers can use, tailored for the Xbox 360. Developer feedback on it has been excellent so far.

      The poor PS3 devs need to develop on Linux.
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

      Comment


      • It doesn't surprise me that the dev tools for the 360 are relatively good. It's probably just a repurposed Visual Studio with a few more tools.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Asher

          Do you know what a vector processor is? In effect, it's a "Single Instruction, Multiple Data" type processor -- SSE, AltiVec, etc. They work on matricies/arrays...for instance, a set of 3D coordinates.

          Vector processors are very fast at doing stuff like 3D math, physics, etc. (dumb computation stuff...straight numbercrunching) They're terrible for things such as AI, core game logic, etc. (conditional logic, branching stuff)

          SPEs are "Synergestic Processor Elements". It's a fancy name for a tiny vector processor.

          The Cell is a regular PowerPC-style processor (AFAIK, a G5/PowerPC 970) and then 8 SPEs/vector processors. The central CPU is more or less the "mother chip", and delegates work to the "daughter processors" to do the processing of vectors.

          On the PS3, one of these SPEs is disabled (for economical reasons...lets them use a higher percentage of chips produced), and another is supposedly reserved for operating system purposes, leaving 6 SPEs and 1 CPU available for developers. In effect, they can run 7 different hardware threads at once, 6 of them in vector units.

          On the Xbox 360's CPU, it's a 3.2GHz tri-core chip, each of which has a vector unit. However, each CPU can handle two threads of data at once, giving developers access to 6 hardware threads, and all 6 of them can exist in the vector units.

          The difference between the two in the real world will be minimial. The PS3 CPU will have a slight advantage in things such as physics and 3D calculations (which is useless, since the GPU does all that these days), while the X360's CPU is more balanced and can perform better with logic, AI, etc.

          IMO, the Xbox 360's design is more appropriate for the gaming console.

          The reason Sony went with Cell is they originally planned to have more than one Cell on the console, and use that to do the graphics calculations as well. They got scared of MS (in my opinion...) and called on Nvidia at the last minute to make a graphics chip. Hence the off-the-shelf part in the PS3, and the reduced number of Cells in the thing.
          So you're saying that Cell doesn't pwn the 360's CPU. So the 2 teraflops thingie is probably bs. Irc, Sony claimed that the PS2 would be able to render Toy Story in real-time... Anyway, acccording to Wikipedia, FLOPS is not a very good measure of gaming console's performance:

          FLOPS in isolation are arguably not very useful as a benchmark for modern computers. There are many other factors in computer performance other than raw floating-point computation speed, such as interprocessor communication, cache coherence, and the memory hierarchy.

          For ordinary (non-scientific) applications, integer operations (measured in MIPS) are far more common. Measuring floating point operation speed, therefore, does not predict accurately how the processor will perform on just any problem. However, for many scientific jobs such as analysis of data, a FLOPS rating is effective.
          So the ultimate test, I guess, will be the games themselves.
          Let us be lazy in everything, except in loving and drinking, except in being lazy – Lessing

          Comment


          • Originally posted by nostromo



            So the ultimate test, I guess, will be the games themselves.
            Indeed; all this technobabble is useless if games are not developed that actually use the power the console is capable of. Out of the hundreds of Xbox games, only a relative few, most of them having come out fairly recently actually push the envelope; Halo 2, Ninja Gaiden and Chaos Theory all show, years after Xbox' launch, what it could do.

            I like the steps MS is taking to force developers to develop games for the 360; I hope we can avoid the slew of ports that came out, and actually get games tailored to the particular console.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by nostromo
              So you're saying that Cell doesn't pwn the 360's CPU. So the 2 teraflops thingie is probably bs.
              It is ABSOLUTELY BS. It will never achieve anything remotely close to that number.

              If it was true, it'd easily be part of the Top500 supercomputer list with multi-million dollar systems...

              Irc, Sony claimed that the PS2 would be able to render Toy Story in real-time...
              Yeah, people are getting a kick out of it because they're saying the exact same thing again. Those of us who still remember the wicked PS2 claims remember and just laugh at the PS3 hype.

              It's even more pathetic that most of the PS3 "footage" was fake pre-rendered crap.

              Anyway, acccording to Wikipedia, FLOPS is not a very good measure of gaming console's performance:
              The only thing FLOPS are good for is marketing.

              So the ultimate test, I guess, will be the games themselves.
              And what does it tell you if they're already fudging this and not showing the real games on the consoles.
              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

              Comment


              • Regarding Xbox Backwards Compatibility:
                At Monday's event, Microsoft also announced plans to make all games from its previous console compatible with the upcoming Xbox 360. However, few details were given regarding how, or when, updated support for Xbox titles would be achieved. Microsoft representatives did say they would start with more popular titles such as "Halo," then move down the line.
                From: http://news.com.com/A+gaggle+of+new+...html?tag=st_lh
                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                Comment


                • My God, what the hell happened to Nintendo? It seems they've been going downhill since the N64, which is a real shame since I grew up playing Nintendo games, the first video game I ever played was SMB3 on the NES, when I was 5. Now they are being relegated to handhelds for kids to play Pokemon.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Odin
                    My God, what the hell happened to Nintendo? It seems they've been going downhill since the N64, which is a real shame since I grew up playing Nintendo games, the first video game I ever played was SMB3 on the NES, when I was 5. Now they are being relegated to handhelds for kids to play Pokemon.
                    I dunno, I'm pretty excited about things.

                    New online Smash Brothers at launch.
                    New next generation Metroid, Zelda, and Mario games in the works.
                    Low Price Point for both the system and the games.
                    Square-Enix Support, aiming for a near-launch online game in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series.
                    DVD-Movie Playback.
                    Fully Online out of the box for free.
                    Backwards Compatible with the entire Nintendo library.
                    Tiny little system in a sleek, ergonomic design.

                    Plus the new Zelda coming out this year looks incredibly kick-ass.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ixnay
                      Square-Enix Support, aiming for a near-launch online game in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series.
                      DVD-Movie Playback.
                      Fully Online out of the box for free.
                      Backwards Compatible with the entire Nintendo library.
                      Tiny little system in a sleek, ergonomic design.
                      Nintendo's about 6 years late on this one.
                      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                      Comment


                      • I think price may end up being important here.


                        Agreed. Doesn't seem like there's much to choose between the PS3 and the Xbox 360, so price will definitely be important.

                        The Revolution is looking like a decent second console, if it's cheap...
                        KH FOR OWNER!
                        ASHER FOR CEO!!
                        GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                        • My prediction on Revolution's specs:

                          Dual Core PowerPC, ~2.4GHz
                          ATI GPU, ~450 mhz with 10MB EDRAM
                          384MB MoSys 1T-SRAM (same kind in Gamecube)
                          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                          Comment



                          • The ps3 will pull 1.8 tflops!!! wow
                            "Mal nommer les choses, c'est accroître le malheur du monde" - Camus (thanks Davout)

                            "I thought you must be dead ..." he said simply. "So did I for a while," said Ford, "and then I decided I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. A kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."

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                            • *pats kaak*
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                              Comment


                              • Nintendo's Revolution has been announced!

                                Spoiler:
                                Super Mario Darts! Mario is set to revolutionize yet another sports franchise, thanks to the most innovative game developer in today's market, Nintendo.
                                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                                Comment

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