Is there scriptual support against premarital sex? I dont think so.

[Robert]

If you have sex you're maried for God.
Mariage starts with either sexual intercourse or a promise you make to each other.
Isaac sees his future wife coming, he takes her into his tent and 'takes' her to his housewife.
That's how things went in those days.

So, don't feel guilty if you had sex with someone you didn't marry. Just feel maried.
And when you skip to the next gal, you've just commited adultery.

I don't know why christians put that much importance to subjects like pre-marital sex. There's one focus we christians should have: Jesus died for our sins. Don't focus on the sins, focus on Jesus.

I'm sorry for all those wrong focusses christians make.

[mrmitchell]

Churches are a goldmine of sexually repressed females. If you can find one who is not overly zealous, you can tap into those repressed feelings and unleash a torrent of passion. This is my second time at the well at this particular church...

Wow. It's like my soul just shriveled up and disappeared.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


seeing as youre not Jewish (your namesake was though, wasnt she?) , theres no particular reason you should feel bound by a law that, on its own terms, was given to the Jews.

No, molly bloom was married to Leopold Bloom, who was Jewish (but not devout) .

As books pertaining to Mosaic law were incorporated within the Christian holy book, as a former Christian I have had exposure to their teaching and their use as a moral code- not as a law, per se.

Homosexuality and other alleged aberrant practices are frequently described as being 'immoral', and there have been many laws on statute books which would have fitted that category too.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by mrmitchell

Wow. It's like my soul just shriveled up and disappeared.

not your soul

[Elok]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
not your soul

Okay, so what about those two things dangling beneath it? Are either of those my soul?

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Translation: You're ****ty in bed and she's looking for an inoffensive way to make her sexual trauma come to an end.

No.



Dude, I am a freakin porn star in the sack. This problem has arisen because she has seen many of her church friends get married in the past year. In passing, I may have mentioned to her that one or another of those couples HAD to have been sexually active based on my observations of them. She became upset and insisted that they all have remained virgins throughout their various courtships. Not long after she began to express some concerns about our sexual activity and I sense a stand may be taken soon (unless I can put her at ease about the subject).

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Elok


And if you're willing to manipulate her values to achieve your desired end of sex, regardless of what they actually say, you must share those values, right?

Seriously, if you're not even respecting her beliefs there's a problem with this relationship, even I can tell. Healthy relationships are not based on subversion of one person's principles by the other. Even if you like the sex, you'd do better in the long run to let it go, because chances are that you'll hurt her or yourself, or both, by playing this game.

How am I manipulating her values? I want to see if there is a valid argument against the idea that abstention from premarital sex is scriptually based. If I cant come to that conclusion myself, I will not attempt to feed her some BS.

At any time she is free to go if she feels we are too different philosphically. I feel that it is not possible to maintain a healthy sexuality without actually having sex. Having a healthy sexuality matters a great deal to one's quality of life, imo. Obviously, she feels the same way and she would not be screwing me if she felt otherwise.

Yes, I know, you're trying to free her from the naughty evil ideology that consumes her life, but she's presumptively a big girl, and can make decisions on her own. She has chosen to have or hold on to her current beliefs, and if they do need to be tested it shouldn't be by someone with an avowed ulterior motive. Soul-searching should be done with an eye for the truth, whatever it is, not "whatever gets me laid." That's more than a little arrogant and inconsiderate to me.

It is a fact of life that men want sex and hit on women. Do you think that she is not hit on outside of the church community? Perhaps she does not want such men because they have no use for religion at all. Me, on the other hand, I do find some value in religion, and maybe that is all she requires to feel comfortable enough with a man to have sex with him..

I dont think soul-searching is as cut-and-dry as you imply. There is no standard approach. Sometimes you are inspired to soul-search when faced with a practical problem. Such is the case for me in this instance.

I'm willing to accept that I cannot find the answer I am looking for. I think it is healthy to ask the question though. We should not follow church doctrine blindly.

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Couple things here.

Apostle Paul says very clearly that the one who unites himself with a prostitute is united with her in both body and spirit. So to sleep with someone, anyone, is to form a union that should not be broken.

How do you make the connection between 'prostitute' and 'anyone'? Did you read the bit in the original post about how the translation of I Cor 6:9 might confuse these two things?

Where is this passage located?

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Spiffor
According to the Bible, it is punishable for a woman not to be virgin at the wedding. Also a betrothed virgin must be stoned if she has sex with somebody else than her bethrothed, and an unbethrothed woman must marry her rapist.

Passage?

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The problem is that admonitions against "fornication" also appear in:

Acts 15:20
Galatians 5:19
Ephesians 5:3
Colossians 3:5
1 Thessalonians 4:3

I think it's harder to explain those passages away, esp. since they aren't addressing anyone in Corinth. I suppose one could argue that they all use "fornication" in the same manner, but I would be curious to see what the original Greek says.

As the original post mentions, older versions like KJV translate 'porneia' in I Cor 6:9 as 'fornication' while newer versions like NIV translate it as 'sexual immorality'. I researched the various translations of the passages you have listed and there is a similar discrepancy between versions. So, in all cases the Greek word is 'porneia' and the argument in the original post applies.

Porneia means 'sexual practices for the purposes of worshipping a false god'. Fornication means prostitution. Not the same thing. And 'sexual immorality' means any damn thing your favorite church wants it to mean..

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by bfg9000


How do you make the connection between 'prostitute' and 'anyone'? Did you read the bit in the original post about how the translation of I Cor 6:9 might confuse these two things?

Where is this passage located?

In his mind.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by bfg9000
Dude, I am a freakin porn star in the sack. This problem has arisen because she has seen many of her church friends get married in the past year. In passing, I may have mentioned to her that one or another of those couples HAD to have been sexually active based on my observations of them. She became upset and insisted that they all have remained virgins throughout their various courtships. Not long after she began to express some concerns about our sexual activity and I sense a stand may be taken soon (unless I can put her at ease about the subject).

abandon ship, abandon ship!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



No, molly bloom was married to Leopold Bloom, who was Jewish (but not devout) .

As books pertaining to Mosaic law were incorporated within the Christian holy book, as a former Christian I have had exposure to their teaching and their use as a moral code- not as a law, per se.

Homosexuality and other alleged aberrant practices are frequently described as being 'immoral', and there have been many laws on statute books which would have fitted that category too.

Yah, well, those Christians were a tad confused. Its pretty clear that this is a law for ISRAEL.

Indeed, the question comes up in Judaism as to what the universal code for all humans is. The traditional answer is the sheva mitzvot al bnai Noach - the seven commandments to the sons of Noah (IE everybody). Which includes stuff like not murdering, not stealing, etc but none of the ritual stuff. The question then comes up - if the Torah is given to Israel, and Israel is not supposed to proselytize, and indeed according to some it is forbidden for gentiles to study Torah - how the heck are gentiles supposed to get the noachide commandments? The answer, you may like - the noachide commandments are accessible to all through HUMAN REASON - no revelation is necessary. IE the only universal code IS the code that is accessible to human reason - anything based on revelation is NOT a universal moral code, cause there is NO universal revelation. Now, I daresay most pre-modern Jews, and many Orthodox Jews today, would take for granted that human reason would find arguments against homosexuality, but thats neither here nor there. Within MY movement, Conservative Judaism, weve pretty much reached consensus on a liberal approach to homosexuality as moral issue, and generally support equal treatment under secular law. We are still struggling with how to deal with this under JEWISH law (for issues like commitment ceremonies, status of gay rabbis, and the like) the movement is headed, I think, toward change - you can see a clear generational split in the Conservative Rabbinate on this - but the change requires textual justification and rabbinic consensus.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

The question then comes up - if the Torah is given to Israel, and Israel is not supposed to proselytize, and indeed according to some it is forbidden for gentiles to study Torah - how the heck are gentiles supposed to get the noachide commandments?

Although clearly given the conversion of the Khazars (and large numbers of Ashkenazim) this can't have been rigidly adhered to.


From what I recall of early Christian history, the split occurred when gentile converts to what was then still a sect of Judaism tried to control synagogues in various areas- or at least that's what I seem to recall from reading Karen Armstrong's excellent 'A History of God'.


She had a very good piece in yesterday's Guardian about the rise of casual anti-semitism in modern politics and society.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by bfg9000


How am I manipulating her values? .

cause like on the one hand, if she wasnt repressed you wouldnt find her so hot. Or maybe you wouldnt find her available at all, since she might be with someone else whos not into the whole repressed thing. But now you want her to STOP being repressed now that shes with you.

The key is the word "seduced". Which in english connotes getting someone who consciously doesnt want to proceed to do so, in various ways. It implies manipulation. Now this can work out just fine for all concerned I suppose, OR it can leave feelings of deception and betrayal.

In any case, you proceed at your own risk, Monsieur Valmont, and i dont think you need our help.

BTW, HAVE you read Liasons Dangereuses?