Is there scriptual support against premarital sex? I dont think so.

[self biased]

you might do well to point out some of the pleasantries of leviticus, too.

[Japher]

leviticus is the best book of the bible

followed by revelations, because it's freakin' nuts

and the Genesis, because it's also freakin' nuts

funny how all the made up stuff in the bible is the best... as well as all the crazy rules.

[self biased]

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

[Agathon]

The Bible is basically BS. Anything worthwhile in all the Western religions was pillaged from Greek Philosophy.

The Bible is a work of spiritual, moral and emotional crudity with a heavy dash of sexual neurosis.

[Odin]

The religious nuts should read all the racy poetry in Songs of Solomon before they start blabbering on about how sex for pleasure is immoral.

[Agathon]

we should just burn all copies of the bible: the world would be a better place for it.

[DinoDoc]

Agathon's approach probably wouldn't be the best approach to getting into your girlfriend's pants bfg. Self Biased's approach wouldn't be of much value either as that's not her hang up.

[Agathon]

He should find a woman with less neuroses.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by self biased

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

your friend is incorrect. Neighboring nations means anyone whos not an Israelite. But more important is the principle of "dina d'malchuta dina" the law of the state IS law - since slavery is illegal in the US, to keep a slave WOULD violate Jewish law. Ditto trading stocks on insider knowledge. Assuming you are posting from the US.

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

see above

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

A woman who keeps jewish law would know, and if unsure would know whom to ask. If she does NOT keep Jewish law, than a nice Jewish boy like yourself shouldnt be in contact with her anyway.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

The temple was destroyed in 69 CE. Its NOT permitted to render animal sacrifices anywhere else. If you have done so you have committed a major sin, and you should see a rabbi immediately.

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

1. If hes not Jewish, theres no problem, since the Sabbath is binding on Jews only. Second, see Dina d'malchuta dina above - there are alternate ways to punish a sabbath breaker today, most of which involve forms of ostracism and exclusion from Jewish ritual acts. third, ANY imposition of the death penalty for any reason MUST be imposed only by a properly constituted rabbinic court, and even such a court must do so as sparingly as possible. As it is written in the Talmud, a court that imposes the death penalty more than once a generation is a bloody court.

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

You are correct. Scientific studies show homosexuality may be hereditary, and so leniency must be found for a lifestyle that is apparently not a choice. I have yet to see evidence that craving for crab cakes is hereditary, outside of Maryland.

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

Again, this refers to the sacrificial altar in the Temple, destroyed in 69 CE. No Temple, no problem. In any case I dont think you can approach the altar if your not a Kohen. Are you a Kohen?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

Its not a capital offense, IIRC. They SHOULD and would be excluded from ultraOrthodox Jewish circles. I note that observant Conservative and Modern Orthodox Jews DO cut the hair around the temples (the "peahs") Im not sure of the legal reasoning allowing this leniency, but could try looking it up.

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

A very good question. I will have to look this up.

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Not only are the agricultural laws incumbent on Jews only, for the most part they are incumbent only in the land of Israel. Once again these are NOT capital offenses. By the way AFAIK theres no issue with cotton/poly blends, its only wool/linen blends that are at issue. There are trained rabbis who can inspect any questionable cloth for you.


hope this helps

[Elok]

Er, did our resident philosopher, heir to the enlightenment, just advise us to burn books? Riiiiiiight...

Odin, just for the record, I don't think sex for pleasure is immoral myself. I just think it should not be taken lightly, if for no other reason than because it can result in the conception of children and (apparently) can have strong emotional effects on the participants. I'll refrain from really discussing the issue till I'm married (read: "informed"), but I hope everyone remembers that there's room between "Only reluctantly, for the perpetuation of the species, and think of the crucifixion the whole time" and "Let's wrestle naked in jello with twelve lesbian midgets."

[Agathon]

Er, did our resident philosopher, heir to the enlightenment, just advise us to burn books? Riiiiiiight...

Yep. Those Enlightenment guys were saps... Greek philosophy all the way baby.

The Bible sucks. It's dumb, and the literary equivalent of American Idol.

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Agathon's approach probably wouldn't be the best approach to getting into your girlfriend's pants bfg. Self Biased's approach wouldn't be of much value either as that's not her hang up.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And Ag and SB raise interesting points, but I hope that we dont lose sight of the thread topic here. Aside from my personal stake in this matter, I am also interested in challenging an idea that is widely held in Christian circles but is also an idea that no one ever dares to challenge in those circles. I don't think it is wrong to ask what the scriptural basis is for church doctrine since church doctrine is supposed to be based on scripture... Thanks to Boris for his post - I will post a reply shortly..

[Agathon]

It's an idea that is widely held in Xtian circles, but has nothing to do with scriptural authority.

Religion isn't about evidence or authorities or anything like that - it is about projecting one's prejudices onto reality. If you could decisively prove that there was nothing in scripture against premarital sex, it would make no difference at all - people don't care about what the Bible actually says, they care about what they want it to say - and such prejudice cannot be removed.

And St Augustine was a poor Platonist. Plotinus all the way baby!!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by bfg9000
And Ag and SB raise interesting points, but I hope that we dont lose sight of the thread topic here.

It's not about us helping you get into the sack with your girlfriend?

[lord of the mark]

" 2) Related question: Is it permitted to wear pigskin shoes, carry a
> pigskin wallet, and/or touch a pigskin football? One the one hand, one
> is not supposed to come in contact with that carcass of a non-kosher
> animal, but most people swat flies, and many wear pigskin shoes, etc.

It is permitted to do all of these things. I don't know where people
get the idea that one shouldn't touch the carcass of an unkosher
animal. Such contact does impart tum'ah, but so does the carcass
of a kosher animal. In any case, there is no prohibition on becoming
tamei."

LOTM - IE YES, you become "impure" (arguably a mistranslation of Tamei) , but thats ok as long as you are "purified" at a mikveh before engaging in certain ritual acts.