Pope given last rites

[Zoid]

Apparently you can make bets on who the next pope will be. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2540369.stm

Dionigi Tettamanzi is a favourite at 6-1 (or 4-1 at some bookies), Francis Arinze at 4-1 and Giacomo Biffi at 6-1. Anyone care to make a wager?

[Dr Strangelove]

In advance of the inevitable I'd like to say that my heart goea out to all the good Catholic posters at 'poly and all the faithful catholics around the world. may you be pleasently surprised by hios successor.

[C0ckney]

paddy power, gotta love 'em. couple of classic bits from the bbc article.

In the short time the book has been open, Paddy Power has accepted "a good few" bets, with stakes of up to £200 (300 euros).

But who is betting on the papacy? The bookmaker cannot be sure, but some of the smart money may be coming from the clergy.

This emphasis on secrecy means it would be difficult for anyone on the outside to pull off a betting coup.

[Agathon]

Dionigi Tettamanzi is a favourite at 6-1 (or 4-1 at some bookies), Francis Arinze at 4-1 and Giacomo Biffi at 6-1. Anyone care to make a wager?

I bet on Roberto Baggio.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
That sounds a little strange.

I thought so too. Too dirty minded.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by Agathon

Dionigi Tettamanzi is a favourite at 6-1 (or 4-1 at some bookies), Francis Arinze at 4-1 and Giacomo Biffi at 6-1. Anyone care to make a wager?

I bet on Roberto Baggio.

That freekick flash game on his site pwns. He should be pope

[Agathon]

The Divine Ponytail!!

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Agathon

I heard on the radio that he died... but apparanlty cable news says he is still alive...

Vampirism?



Seriously, he's dead... he's not dead... bits of him are dead, but other bits aren't... this is what you get with 24/7 news media.

No, it's the Catholic Church's April Fool's Day joke.

ACK!

[Chilean Presidentâ„¢]

El PaÃs (SPAIN): Pope recover conscience and write a message asking 'do not drop tears for me' and saying also 'I'm happy and I'm also with all of you'. The Pope wrote the message with the help of his secretary Don Stanislao.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Chilean Presidentâ„¢
El PaÃs (SPAIN): Pope recover conscience and write a message asking 'do not drop tears for me' and saying also 'I'm happy and I'm also with all of you'. The Pope wrote the message with the help of his secretary Don Stanislao.

A hard bed to lie on, but a soft one to die on. What a man.

[Vince278]

Vote Vince278 for Pope!

[Alexander's Horse]

Is the feeding tube in or out at this point?

[Dinner]

This is going to be another Arafat type media event. "In the news today the Pope is still not dead."

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Winston
Nonsense, anything's possible. How else would they ever change their stance on anything.

You're not a Roman Catholic Winston, are you ?

Nothing is necessarily 'possible' where Church doctrine (and/or politics) is concerned, viz., papal infallibity and the repercusions of popes 'retiring' :

'What worries Catholics most in the current crisis in the Church is precisely the "problem of the Pope." We need very clear ideas on this question. We must avoid shipwreck to the right and to the left, either by the spirit of rebellion or, on the other hand, by an inappropriate and servile obedience. The serious error which is behind many current disasters is the belief that the "Authentic Magisterium" is nothing other than the "Ordinary Magisterium,"

The "Authentic Magisterium" cannot be so simply identified with the Ordinary Magisterium. In fact, the Ordinary Magisterium can be infallible and non-infallible, and it is only in this second case that it is called the "Authentic Magisterium." The Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique [hereafter referred to as DTC - Ed.] under the heading of "papal infallibility" (vol. VII, col.1699ff) makes the following distinctions: 1) there is the "infallible or ex cathedra papal definition in the sense defined by Vatican I" (col.1699); 2) there is the "infallible papal teaching which flows from the pope's Ordinary Magisterium" (col.1705); 3) there is "non-infallible papal teaching" (col.1709).

Similarly, Salaverri, in his Sacrae Theologiae Summa (vol. I, 5th ed., Madrid, B.A.C.) distinguishes the following: 1) Extraordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 592ff); 2) Ordinary Infallible Papal Magisterium (no. 645ff); 3) Papal Magisterium that is mere authenticum, that is, only "authentic" or "authorized" as regards the person himself, not as regards his infallibility (no.659ff).

While he always has full and supreme doctrinal authority, the pope does not always exercise it at its highest level, that is at the level of infallibility. As the theologians say, he is like a giant who does not always use his full strength. What follows is this:

1) "It would be incorrect to say that the pope is infallible simply by possessing papal authority," as we read in the Acts of Vatican I (Coll.L ac. 399b). This would be equivalent to saying that the pope's authority and his infallibility are the same thing.

2) It is necessary to know "what degree of assent is due to the decrees of the sovereign pontiff when he is teaching at a level which is not that of infallibility, i.e., when he is not exercising the supreme degree of his doctrinal authority" (Salaverri, op.cit., no.659). '

In and out the houses:


" The following is an illustrative quote from Eric Tuttobene and Greg Loren Durand's treatise Ex Cathedra: An Historical and Scriptural Analysis of Papal Infallibility [1] which cites specific historical events, all of which have a direct bearing on this controversy. We hope the consideration of these events will resolve the issue all together.

"Victor I (189-199) first approved of Montanism in 192, and then later condemned it. Honorius (625-638) taught the heresy of Monotheism, which denied that Christ simultaneously possessed two separate natures-human and divine. He was later condemned as a heretic by the Third Council of Constantinople in 680. Marcellinus (296-304) entered the Temple of Vesta and offered incense to the pagan goddess. Liberius (352-366) consented to the condemnation of Athanasius, the 'great defender of the Deity of Christ,' and made a profession of Arianism that he might be recalled from exile and reinstated in his seat. …Gregory I (590) declared that anyone who believed it was not necessary to take both the bread and wine at Mass was to be excommunicated; Innocent III (1215) stated that anyone who believed it was necessary was to be excommunicated. Paschal II (1099-1118) and Eugene III (1145-1153) authorized dueling; Julius II (1503-1513) and Pius VII (1800-1823) forbade it. Hadrian II (867-872) declared civil marriages to be valid; Pius VII condemned them. Sixtus V (1585-1590) published an edition of the Bible and recommended it to be read; Pius VII condemned the reading of it, claiming the edition to be full of errors. Clement XIV (1769-1774) abolished the order of the Jesuits; Paul III (1534-1549) permitted it and Pius VII re-established it. The list of such errors is quite lengthy, but the foregoing examples sufficiently prove our point."

The point we wish to convey through the above quote is that over the centuries a number of Popes have contradicted other Popes on matters of faith and morals. These contradictions ought to resolve the question of Papal infallibility once and for all: how can an infallible statement contradict an equally infallible statement? "

How indeed. Pope's who have retired in the past have been given a signally bad press.

I noted that the Vatican has said he is 'serene'- I take this to be Vatican-speak for 'he may be dying in extreme pain and distress and mental confusion, but we sure aren't going to let you lot know about it' .

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by molly bloom

over the centuries a number of Popes have contradicted other Popes on matters of faith and morals. These contradictions ought to resolve the question of Papal infallibility once and for all: how can an infallible statement contradict an equally infallible statement? "

There are are certainly many many contradictions in what Popes have said including on core issues of theology. Papal infallibility should be seen more as an effort to assert the authority of the papacy, with varying degrees of success.

This Pope was a great centraliser and builder of papal authority within the church and more widely but one gets the feeling that decentralising tendencies will be strong when he goes. The power of the papacy waxes and wanes, its difficult to see the next Pope as being as influential as this one and there is sentiment around that it would not be a bad thing if Vatican power declined.

For example I have heard it said that the Cardinals will go for an older candidate if they don't want a repeat of a 26 year reign by one Bishop, which some think was too long.