Today is my last day

[Dr Strangelove]

OTOH I shouldn't rain on Ben's parade. At least he's moving in the righht direction.

Good Luck Ben. Oh heck, how much luck could you need? It's not like you can actually do anything wrong now.

[Brent]

Not even apostles need be perfect, but how were they all hopeless?

[Odin]

Originally posted by Brent
Not even apostles need be perfect, but how were they all hopeless?

Paul made up a lot of crap, for a start...

[Brent]

Y'see, Satan was given greater power to tempt them because they had greater potential to withstand it. And they were excusable because Satan was so desperate to tear them down. And they were reeeally good in the preexistence.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
You don't need a Pope in order to co-ordinate the religious ceremonies of a worldwide church. The Anglican Communion does the same thing without an autocratic structure.

Yeah, and looked what happened. There's a trans-atlantic rift because there's no central authority to dictate policy. That would never happen to the Catholic church.

What I was referring to was the vast chasm between what the Roman hierarchy thinks makes a good Catholic and what the parishoners think, specifically regarding the subjects of birth control, marriage, and sexuality. Most of the Catholics that I know brush off Papal teachings with a "so what" attitude. No one cares what the Pope thinks, so what's the point of having a Papacy?

The Church will get over these issues. Just wait until a more liberal Pope comes in and makes the proper reforms. Having a central authority like the Pope allows the church to evolve cohesively without the need for partisan splintering into a million different denominations like the protestants have done.

The Pope also gives the church power. Heads of state meet with the Pope on a regular basis. How many protestant denominations can claim this? No, it doesn't mean the catholic church is more theologically valid, but in practical terms it gives catholics a very real and tangible sway which they wouldn't otherwise have. But I digress...

but I've been to a number of Catholic services which were more like folk or Christian rock festivals.

I've never been to one like that, and I grew up in Boston - the Pope's little kingdom. I've never been to a mass where the hymns weren't opera-esque. Maybe in parts of the country which are more protestant Catholic churches have emulated it a bit. Because that folksy stuff is typically a protestant thing.

[Alexander's Horse]

I should correct my earlier statement about Baptists. Plenty of catholics out there protesting.

The right to life fringe types. Catholicism. Religion for stupid people is what it is.

There, now I'm being ecumenical.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hey, I'm on that 'right to life' fringe.

Pretty big fringe if you ask me.

[Ben Kenobi]

The ceremony went very well. Had a nice dinner with friends before, and everyone came to the reception afterwards.

Communion was very nice, to drink from the same cup for once as my Catholic friends was very special.

Confirmation was a little more awkward. I got too much chrism and it spilled all over my white gown.

[Ben Kenobi]

We've gotten over the sixties and don't feel the need for folk rock masses.

Uh, neither do any of the parishes I attend. There is something to be said for praise and worship, but that can be done apart from the mass.

This is a problem? The idea of the hierarchy is the Catholic chuches greatest weakness. The vast majority of Catholics ignore it. If they didn't there would undoubtedly be a mass exodus of congregants out of the Roman Catholic Church.

Michael Ingham is the Anglican archbishop of New Westminster. That's partially what discourages me so much about the heirarchy in the Anglican church.

[Spiffor]

BTW, Ben, since you're online.

My last question got lost in the thread (about your opinion of scripture as the one source of literal truth, or not). Could you tell me if your beliefs evolved about the role of scriptural interpretation? Thanks

[Ben Kenobi]

Two streams. First of all, there is the recognition while in the Mennonite church that tradition is still required in order to interpret scripture, even if you say that scripture is the primary authority.

Secondly, is the presentation by Scott Hahn as to the Catholic position of scripture and tradition, I found closer to my own beliefs than sola scriptura. I rejected that interpretation that each ought to be able to interpret scripture on their own without any tradition, because that leads to all sorts of problems, quite early on.

Also, scripture affirms the role of tradition in intepretation as well as the role of elders in assisting such interpretation. So if you believe the bible is the sole authority, then you are forced to cede that even the bible affirms the authority of tradition.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The ceremony went very well. Had a nice dinner with friends before, and everyone came to the reception afterwards.

Communion was very nice, to drink from the same cup for once as my Catholic friends was very special.

Confirmation was a little more awkward. I got too much chrism and it spilled all over my white gown.

I'm glad you had a good day - Easter Sunday is a good day for these things

[Spiffor]

Thanks Ben for the answer (and it wasn't even a trap question ;p )

[Dinner]

So isn't all this for a girl? Religion can't be all that important if you can cast it off just because you're horny.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


Yeah, and looked what happened. There's a trans-atlantic rift because there's no central authority to dictate policy. That would never happen to the Catholic church.

Before the current rift over the position of gays in the church there was a rift over the position of women in the church. We survived the former and are surviving the later. The rifts have been not so much trans-Atlantic, but north-south, with the churches in Africa and Asia taking a more conservative approach on the issue.

The Church will get over these issues. Just wait until a more liberal Pope comes in and makes the proper reforms. Having a central authority like the Pope allows the church to evolve cohesively without the need for partisan splintering into a million different denominations like the protestants have done.

I'm not going to reply to this because this is Ben's thread.

The Pope also gives the church power. Heads of state meet with the Pope on a regular basis. How many protestant denominations can claim this? No, it doesn't mean the catholic church is more theologically valid, but in practical terms it gives catholics a very real and tangible sway which they wouldn't otherwise have. But I digress...

"Render unto Caeser what is Caesar's." "My kingdom is not of this world."

I've never been to one like that, and I grew up in Boston - the Pope's little kingdom. I've never been to a mass where the hymns weren't opera-esque. Maybe in parts of the country which are more protestant Catholic churches have emulated it a bit. Because that folksy stuff is typically a protestant thing.

You need to come down here and straighten out your co-religionists fast.