I ain't seen the movie, so don't tell me what happens.
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Schiavo Thread Part the Third
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, the Courts were on Elian's father's side.http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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Federal courts, bucko. The state court had no standing.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Federal courts, bucko. The state court had no standing.
Yet the pressure is mounting, even some of the Schindler family spokespeople are asking the governor to do something, and he remains steadfast. In light of that, it might serve interesting to go back and look at the Elian Gonzales case and try to compare notes what happens when some people get legal rulings they don't like and what other people do when they get legal rulings they don't like. John Fund today has a piece called, "Selective Restraint" at OpinionJournal.com. I don't want to read the whole thing. He basically recapped some of the history of the Elian Gonzales piece, but let me just read these two short paragraphs to you. "The stalemate continued for another three months. On Thursday, April 20, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals--the same court that rejected the pleas of Terri Schiavo's parents last week--turned down the Justice Department's request to order Elian removed from the home of his Miami relatives. Moreover, the court expressed serious doubts about the Justice Department's reading of both the law and its own regulations, adding that Elian had made a 'substantial case on the merits' of his claim. It further established a record that Elain, 'although a young child, has expressed a wish that he not be returned to Cuba.'
"The Reno Justice Department acted the next day to short-circuit a legal process that was clearly going against it. On Good Friday evening, after all courts had closed for the day, the department obtained a 'search' warrant from a night-duty magistrate who was not familiar with the case, submitting a supporting affidavit that seriously distorted the facts. Armed with that dubious warrant, the INS's helmeted officers, assault rifles at the ready, burst into the home of Elian's relatives and snatched the screaming boy from a bedroom closet. Many local bystanders were tear-gassed even though they did nothing to block the raid. Elian was quickly returned to Cuba; because he was never able to meet with his lawyers a scheduled May 11 asylum hearing on his case in Atlanta became moot." And so he was gone, that was just it. And so the 11th circuit basically ruled against Reno, ruled against the justice department, and Reno said, "To hell with it," and went and got a search warrant for the home where Elian was, spirited the kid out of there with an armed INS agent, and, bam, sent him back down to Cuba. They just totally ignored the ruling and so that's why people are asking Jeb Bush, "What do you have to do? The precedent is there. You can do what you have to do." And they're saying to Governor Bush, "You wouldn't even be doing this. I mean, you wouldn't be making as egregious an error as Janet Reno did." We went back to our audio archives. We wanted to get some sound bites from the Elian Gonzales period just to sort of back up the John Fund story today. We have three of them. On April 6th of 2000, listen to deputy attorney general Eric Holder, he was hosting Reno's press briefing that week, and this is a portion of his opening statement.
HOLDER: I have a six-year-old daughter, and as a father, I cannot imagine the anguish of being separated from my daughter due to circumstances beyond my control. That is one reason that I believe reuniting Elian with his father is not only a matter of federal law, it is not a matter of immigration law, it is simply the right thing to do. A father and his son need to be together, and in the coming days, we will do all that we can to ensure that that happens.
RUSH: But the rulings went against them. Everybody knows where they stood on this. They were against Elian staying here and in support of going back to Cuba. Janet Reno is next. She was on Wolf Blitzer show April 9th of 2000, and Blitzer said, "Look, the vice president disagrees with you. He disagrees with the president. He makes the case, as do many others, let a family court decide custody since the family court is better experienced in dealing with these kinds of custodial issues than the Immigration and Naturalization Service is," and Janet Reno said...
RENO: But here we have a situation where a father has done a good job of raising his son to date, where a distant relative has, because of a tragedy, fallen to be responsible for him and in four months has formed a bond. That father and the sacred relationship between a father and son is what should be paramount in this situation.
RUSH: So the court, you know, a lot of people disagreeing with Reno at that point but it didn't matter. Now we go to April 20th, 2000. This is the day, April 20th of 2000 is the day the 11th US Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta turned down the justice department's request to order Elian Gonzales removed from the home of his Miami relatives. They turned Janet Reno down. They said, "No, you can't go get him and he's not going to be removed from the home in Miami." So they had Greg Craig, who was Elian's lawyer, one of Clinton's impeachment lawyers, and who we now have learned guided Dan Rather through the question-and-answer session, the interview with Juan Miguel Gonzales, practically directed it. He was on the Today Show. Matt Lauer said, "This ruling leaves another even larger issue very cloudy, and that is whether a six-year-old boy has the right to speak for himself in an asylum case, and of course the government has said no, the father could only speak for the son, but the court seems to disagree," and this is what Greg Craig said.
CRAIG: Well, you know, in our jurisprudence there are very few things of this magnitude that a six-year-old can do. We don't let six-year-olds enter into contracts. We really don't hold six-year-olds responsible for torts or for criminal conduct. And it really is nonsensical to think that a six-year-old can make a determination as to whether he has a well founded fear of persecution, which is the test in an asylum case.
RUSH: So basically what Greg Craig was saying here, the ruling of the court didn't matter because it was wrong, the 11th circuit was wrong to give a six-year-old this kind of standing and so shortly after that they went in there and just ripped him out of there. I mean, people remember this, and it happened in Miami; it happened in Florida, and this is why so many people are just telling Jeb Bush to throw caution to the wind and go do what's right, just as Janet Reno and Eric Holder and Greg Craig all imposed what they thought was right and basically said "screw you" to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. Imagine if that had happened in this case. The left back in the Elian Gonzales case was not upset with Reno, not upset with Craig, not upset with Eric Holder, and wasn't really upset with the INS, and they really weren't upset with the agent going in the way he did. There was more celebration that Elian was going to be returned to his father. There wasn't much criticism at all of the extrajudicial behavior of Janet Reno and the justice department and Greg Craig. So I just wanted to point this out because the left is sitting there arguing all day long that DeLay and all these Republicans are full of hypocrisy, as though that somehow justifies a woman's death. It's a silly way to pursue an argument. As I said Friday, this is not about conservative and liberal, but it's interesting to look at the two sides and how they come down on this. The left is trying to argue for this on the basis that Republicans are being hypocritical about it and it's irrelevant. And then to say that she was bulimic and she brought this on herself because she didn't have enough self-respect and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and when you also found out the husband had warned her he would abandon her if she gained any weight, I mean, for crying out loud, are we starting deciding that people who are bulimic deserve to die? I mean, the rationale that some people are coming up with continues to boggle the mind. By the way, we've had a magnitude 8.2 earthquake reported in Sumatra, Indonesia. And of course now the tsunami fears are no doubt heightened, as they naturally would be.
BREAK TRANSCRIPT
RUSH: One more thing here from John Fund's piece today, the OpinionJournal.com entitled "Selective Restraint," and this is just to let you know that Janet Reno was also in defiance of a court order. Here are the two relevant paragraphs. "If a state court had been allowed to hear the custody case, INS officials would not have been able to testify as to what Mr. Gonzalez told them to support his claim because it would have been hearsay. He would have had to come to the U.S. to testify on his own [this is the father] subject to cross-examination. Even if the state court had granted him custody, it would have had to decide whether it was in the child's best interest to be returned to Cuba." That's if a state court had been allowed to hear the custody case. "That's what Judge Rosa Rodriguez of Florida Family Court, complying with the original INS ruling, tried to do when she ruled in early January 2000 that her court had jurisdiction over the boy and gave Elian's great-uncle legal authority to represent him. Her order contravened an INS ruling that only Elian's father could speak for the boy and that he should be immediately returned to Cuba. Attorney General Janet Reno than promptly declared that Judge Rodriguez's ruling had 'no force or effect.'" Simply said (paraphrasing), "What you've just ruled here judge has no force or effect because I'm ruling that you don't have jurisdiction." This was not Congress. This was not the elected representatives of the people interceding. This was the justice department and the attorney general. And she told a family court judge, you've got no standing here. You have no force or effect with your ruling. "At the same time, INS officials assured reporters that under no circumstances did they intend to seize Elian by force." Which is exactly what they did. So you have circumstances -- everything is not similar here. It's not down the line similar, but, you know, you've got the left in this country having a conniption fit over Congress getting involved, a couple Sunday nights, Monday mornings ago.
You've got the left in this country having a conniption fit over President Bush being involved by simply flying back to Washington to sign the legislation. You've got the left having conniption fits over those of us who are being critical of the tyrannical judiciary in this country, and yet here back in 2000 the justice department and Greg Craig respectively told a Florida family court you have no force or effect with your ruling and the 11th circuit was told by Greg Craig, you're wrong and so the INS just went in there and took the kid away under search warrant and spirited him back to Cuba and that was it, and there was no action purified against Reno nor Greg Craig for violating two different courts. Now, I'm not trying to remind everybody or refight the Elian Gonzales business. The left is out there shouting hypocrisy at the right. If they're going to shout hypocrisy I'm going to turn it around and let it bounce right off me and aim it back at them, because where was their disgust with the same types of things they think they're clearly disgusted with today, although the things they're disgusted with today pale in comparison to what Reno, the justice department, and Greg Craig did five years ago: Utter defiance of two different courts, and the veritable kidnapping via search warrant from a night court magistrate of Elian Gonzales and then sending him back to Cuba.
You know, these are two different stories obviously, but if you ask me the Gonzales story has the greater degree of thumbing one's nose at the courts, and basically saying to the court:"We don't like your ruling. Screw it. We're going to do what we want to do anyway. I'm the attorney general. What are you going to do to stop me?" Which leads us to the next story. This is from the American Spectator Online today, their Prowler column. The White House was 'troubled,' according to one source, about the reported actions -- or inactions, in this case -- of the Justice Department last week as Republicans in Congress made a last ditch attempt to rescue Terri Schiavo. 'You actually had Arlen Specter and his Judiciary Committee out there trying to save this woman's life, and then you have Alberto Gonzales and his crew over at Justice basically putting up roadblocks,' says a White House staffer. 'This was not a good way for Gonzales to start his tenure there.' Gonzales has been on the job at Justice for a little over two months now, and the congressional attempts to restore the feeding tube to Schiavo was the new AG's first high-profile foray into the politics that swirl around the Justice Department. By most accounts, Gonzales and his team fared poorly, at least from Republican viewpoints. 'Instead of trying to work with us, all we got were no's and roadblocks, with little guidance on what we could do and could not do,' says a House leadership staffer who spoke often with the Justice Department's Legislative Affairs office. 'They weren't being helpful, and they sure weren't doing the White House any favors.'..."
"To be fair to Gonzalez, Ashcroft's presence at Justice probably would not have made much difference. Ashcroft was excoriated by conservatives on his leaving office for what they said were his failures to press for tough stands against pornography, human trafficking and abortion rights..." I don't know that he got hit that hard by conservatives. You know what I think this is? And I'm just going to throw a stab in the dark at this, but I think this is what happens to our nominees who get creamed during confirmation hearings. I think they get scared. I think they get beaten up so much and they are accused of so much outrageous stuff. The stuff that Gonzales was accused of? Being an architect of torture at Abu Ghraib. Gonzales was accused of all of these inhumane activities. The left did everything they could to stop Gonzales from becoming attorney general, and had he acted -- I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was in his mind that shortly after his confirmation and relatively shortly after his confirmation hearings, he would take action like this, that the left would stand and act outraged and say, "See, we told you, this man's not qualified," and so forth. I also think the public polling on this is affecting a lot of people even though that public polling is bogus, by misstating Terri Schiavo's medical circumstances and conditions. Nevertheless, I gotta go.
BREAK TRANSCRIPT
RUSH: So back during the Elian Gonzales story when Janet Reno basically told a family court judge in Florida, "Your ruling has no force or effect," and Greg Craig and the justice department told the 11th Circuit Court, "Your ruling is wrong. We're going to go in and get the kid." Well, they didn't say that. They said, "Your ruling..." Well, they may not have said it. "The ruling is wrong. INS, get a search warrant. Go in and get the kid, take him back to Cuba." During all of that where were all of the mainstream media types and the liberal members of Congress and these liberal law professors? Where were they talking about, "You can't do this to the courts! You can't overrule the courts like this! You can't do that." I'll tell you where they were: They were rooting for Reno! They were rooting for Reno. The left was rooting for Reno and rooting for Juan Miguel Gonzales and rooting for Clinton to send this kid back to Cuba, which is what they wanted, and of course when the courts were defied, when two courts were defied back then you didn't hear any complaints from the left about what all this meant, what the ramifications were. Because their side that they were rooting for had won and they weren't concerned about the effect on the judiciary. There were no concerns about future lawlessness and what this might lead to. Why, this might lead to anybody just deciding to say, "To hell with the court ruling! I'm just going to go ahead and do what I want to do. To hell with it. I'm the justice department. I'm the attorney general or I'm a lawyer close to Bill Clinton, the president, so I'm just going to do what I want to do."
Rush Limbaugh, America's Anchorman and Doctor of Democracy, is known as the pioneer of AM radio. Limbaugh revolutionized the media and political landscape with his unprecedented combination o f serious discussion of political, cultural and social issues along with satirical and biting humor.
The bottom line:
1) The 11th Circuit turned down Reno's request to remove Elian before Janet acted.
2) The 11th Circuit approved of state court jurisdiction to resolve the custody dispute.
3) The 11th Cirucit agreed that Eilian had made a sufficient plea to remain in the US.
Note also the Michael Schiavo interview with Larry King where he said he did not know what Terri would have wanted. I will look for that transcript in due course.http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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Checked this interview with Michael. He does not say what Limbaugh says he said.
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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Here is the Shindler's response to Michael's interview. They flatly contradict virtually everything Michael said, including his claim that he knew what Terry would have wanted to do.
Furthermore, apparently there were marks on Terri's neck consistent with strangulation, and a fracture to hear occipital area of the head. Upon admittance to the hospital, her neck was "stiff." This also is apparently consistent with strangulation.
Also, it appears, that the witnesses to Michael's abuse of Terri were exluded from testimony by Judge Greer.
Finally, when the Guardian ad litem said that Michael should be removed as guardian due to conflict of interest, he instead was removed at the request of Michael's attorney.
Now we have evidence of major fractures elsewhere that remain unexplained.http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..
Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
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Originally posted by Ned
Che, I don't fundamentally disagree with you. My original post on this topic reflected the fact that were there no disputes on any of these issues and were it clear that the unfortunate victim of cardiac arrest left clear indications of no wish to continue in a vegative state, I would support what happened in the movie Million Dollar Baby., you support that, but not this?
MDB spoiler below
Spoiler:
Yes it is different because she did give consent. But what Eastwood did was murder. It's against the law to help somone committ suicide. And that is what that was. It wasn't euthanasia, it was helping someone commit suicide. And she was just disabled, she wasn't brain damaged, or in a coma. She was no worse off than christopher reeve.
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Hello? Anybody listening? It is interesting, with all the various insta-doctors out there - none of the don't pull the plug crowd has addressed m post about oxygen starvation and the brain. 10 minutes. You don't recover. Period. Nada. Never. You're a vegetable, and aren't coming back. Source - The American Academy of Neurosciences. Somehow I doubt they qualify as biased.The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
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Ned, don't quote Rush Limbaugh at me. He's worse than you are when it comes to making up and distorting the facts. That's as silly as quoting Ann Coulter. I sewar, Ned, I think you do this just to amuse us and yourself.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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hmm, Terri Schiavo has her own blog now. I don't think anyone capable of creating and writing a blog should be put to death. thanks to Asher for the link
ooh, Jesse is on tv right now. Media Whore!
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