Age rights- draw your lines

[Wycoff]

I'd keep everything as it is currently in the US, except I'd return execution age to 16 and lower drinking age to 18.

[OzzyKP]

Re: Age rights- draw your lines

Ok. I've got some time finally to get to this thread a bit. Funny to see there are bets going around on me, hehe. Don't hold me to any of this, these are just my personal thoughts, and not at all representative of the organization I work for. So no calling reporters or anything. But... here goes.

1- Leave full-time education.

Anytime and never. I guess it depends on how we conceive "full-time education". We are always learning, and throughout life will always learn. So full-time education is a lifelong pursuit, and there is no way to escape from it. If you mean in the sense of compulsory education, then I don't think there should be compulsory education in the first place. Education should be far more natural, more understanding of how children actually learn, and more free/voluntary.

2- Drive a car.

Whenever the person can pass a driving test. All drivers must pass a driving test, and all must be licensed. So there is already an individually tailored mechanism in place to ensure good drivers on the road. What are people afraid of by letting anyone take the test? Will society be destroyed by thousands of 8 year olds taking and failing a driving test? Umm, no.

If however you think the driving test is a joke, and insufficent to really determine whether someone is a qualified driver, then I agree with you, and we should make the test harder for people of all ages.

3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.

Requiring a certain level of driving experience is appropriate. I think 2-3 years of driving experience would be ok, but much of this, I imagine would be done not by law but by the business looking for drivers, so they can set their own policies on the matter. But again, if someone started driving at 13, and was a good driver with a clean record for 3 years, then sure he could opperate a bus or truck or something.

4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.

If not coerced or exploited or defrauded (by the company OR by parents) then I dunno, 10 or so? Of course those are big caveats. Frankly I would expect extremely few, if any, kids want to do something like this. And especially now with the mechanised process, and the economy, very few employers who would have much use for the kids in such a job. Part of the benefit of hiring kids a century ago was they would work for cheaper. Well now we have a minimum wage, and young workers would, or at least, should get the same minimum wage as everyone else. Amazingly the law doesn't always work that way, but that's how it should be. So why could an employer hire a small, inexperienced 10 year old for the same wages as a much larger, stronger adult immigrant laborer? Just isn't going to happen. Plus, no kid would ever want such a job. If given the freedom to make that choice (and not being forced into it by parents or anyone else) then I dont' think any kid would want such a job. Just as very few adults would want such a job anyways. Remember its not the 1800's anymore.

5- Have sex.

For peer group - puberty (but honestly are we going to arrest 8 year olds playing doctor or something? not a chance)
For outside of peer group... eh thats tricky. Not that I doubt the capacity of youth to make such decisions for themselves, there is definitely an issue with power imbalances. Just as it is inappropriate for a boss to make advances toward an employee, it is inappropriate for an adult to make advances toward a minor. At some point when youth are far more empowered, more confident, more able to defend their rights and their person, and far more independent (all a result of increased youth rights), then maybe the issue could be revisited, but that is still conditional. For now, perhaps 15-16 or so.

6- Buy porn.

Eh, every kid gets into porn far below the age limit, and I don't think it does massive harm. I was looking at my dad's Playboys at like 8. I had found more hardcore magazines by like 11 or 12. I don't see the big issue. I think if we deemphasized sex in the first place, then it wouldn't be such a big deal, and likely most kids wouldn't feel such pressure to seek out porn and sex. So maybe no age limit. But I don't think it would be a huge deal.

7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.

Well one must be aroused first, so that obviously cuts out pre-pubescent children. Despite the emotional revultion to the idea, logically, this issue is just a combination of questions 4 and 5. Can they work and can they have sex? Like with the other two, exploitation and power dynamics are very key questions. Are a bunch of malicious pedophiles putting the youth up to it, or are they doing it for the same reasons adults are? I think the power inbalances I mentioned in answer to the sex question affect this as well. Until those power inbalances are removed, its impossible to really give a straight answer. So until then, I'd say 15-16 or so.

8- Get married.

The answer to 5 would apply to this one as well. Puberty for age peers, and 15-16 for outside of that, for all the same reasons stated before.

9- See front-line service in the army.

Assuming, of course, no exploitation or coercion, then 14-15 or so. Heros of some of America's greatest wars have been that age or younger. Even the Revolutionary War. The question of course is whether the military will want anyone real young. If you are too young and physically immature, you aren't an effective combat soldier. Sending the old, infirm, weak, and young into battle is just stupid. So I don't think that'd be an issue terribly. As for getting drafted... no one should be drafted.

10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.

Hmm, I dunno. Not an issue I think about often. 12? 13? I dunno, something like that. I know a lot of folks raised in households where guns are ubiquitous are very careful and very respectful of guns, and wouldn't be silly and dangerous with them. Plus for generations, kids have been going hunting with their dads. If they could handle a gun 50 years ago, and 100 years ago, and 150 years ago, etc, then I think they can be alright with it now. Of course with something like this, the parents would need to be involved, (assuming the kid lives with his/her parents) cause it'd be in their house.

11- Vote.

No age restriction really needed. Real young children are incapable of voting in the first place, and even a bit older would have very little interest in politics and voting by and large. We could go for a competency or citizenship test if we wanted, but unless that standard is applied to adults as well, it'd be hypocritical. If we think one must be competent to vote, then we test for it of all people, no age restriction is required. If we think citizenship and humanity are the grounds upon which the right to vote is based, then these qualities exist in youth as well and no age restriction is required. Once again, no young voter could be coerced by parents or anyone else to vote a certain way. That's already the law. So I don't think there is any real harm in letting anyone vote who wants to. There are no laws requiring people to vote.

12- Become President.

No age limit needed. As has been noted many times here. If someone is inexperienced and incompetent, they won't be elected. Give the public more credit. They aren't going to vote for a 12 year old, or a house cat.

13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.

13-14 or so. *shrug*, something like that.

14- Adopt children.

13-14 or so. *shrug*, something like that.

15- Gamble.

No age restriction. I don't see the harm really in gambling, and everyone gambles small scale anyways. Even in elementry school.

16- Get executed.

No one should be executed. If we are to have a death penalty, then as Drogue mentioned, the criminal trials can determine on an individual basis whether the accused youth was truly competent and rational at time of the crime. Same general standard that applies to adults. So since we already have an individualized system in place, no age restriction is necessary.

17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.

*shrug* I dunno. Whenever I guess. Do pet stores give out pets to anyone who has the money for them? Or do they attempt to determine whether the person is capable of caring for the animal? Also with this one, parents would need to be involved, cause the presence of a pet in the house affects all the inhabitants.


Ok, congrats for finally pinning me down to (mostly) hard fast answers on these questions. You must understand though, that I have definite concerns about really giving hard numbers for things. The ideal world I want does not exist, and its difficult to make predictions based on predictions. Many ducks need to be in a row before many of the above age restrictions can be lowered or removed. Doing all of the above suddenly would be a terrible disaster.

The potential of youth does not equal the actuality of youth, the potential of society does not equal the actuality of society. In order to handle a lot of the above rights, youth (and all people) need to be self-assure enough and assertive enough to protect themselves from those who wish to exploit them. A gradual empowerment of youth, which is what I want, will create this.

Exploitation is a very real danger, don't get me wrong. Its just that those ageists who support strict age restrictions as a means of fighting the exploitation of youth are in fact doing MORE harm by facilitating MORE exploitation by keeping youth uninformed and powerless. For example, if you want to stop teenage pregancy do you pass a law outlawing teen sex and then deny teens any information about contraception? No, that's stupid. We need to empower youth to make more decisions for themselves. To do that we have to trust them through a gradual process of granting more freedom (as a class, continually going lower and lower).

When we create a society that expects youth to be docile and defer always to adult authority we are only empowering pedophiles and others who would exploit and harm children. That attitude of docility, which is common among oppressed people, needs to be changed before any radical changes in law can happen. Funnily, a large component toward changing that attitude is moderate changes in law.

This is why I advocate for lowering age restrictions incrementally, while at the same time confronting the general attitude of ageism and oppression toward youth, so as to empower youth to better handle more freedom.

[Sava]

Interesting answers Ozzy... I can't say I agree with much, but you make good arguments.

[OzzyKP]

Thanks I don't ask that you necessarily agree, just that you listen and consider what I've got to say. Good to see that you are.

[Odin]

Re: Re: Age rights- draw your lines

Originally posted by Smiley
Sex shouldn't be stigmatized.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
why should parents be forced to spend money supporting their children doing stuff they dont' support?

Jon Miller

They shouldn't be. If they are unhappy with their kid's actions, their recourse is stop spending money on them.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Re: Re: Age rights- draw your lines

Originally posted by OzzyKP


7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.

Well one must be aroused first, so that obviously cuts out pre-pubescent children. .

I can't speak for the performance of your genitalia, but mine were perfectly capable of displaying an obvious state of arousal when I was pre-pubescent. In fact, just last week in my house the conversation was halted when my friend's 3 year-old son took his clothes off and ran around sporting a rather impressive erection and shouting "Look at my big willie!".

Do you have much experience of dealing with kids from an adult perspective?

[Kontiki]

Re: Re: Age rights- draw your lines

Originally posted by OzzyKP


11- Vote.

No age restriction really needed. Real young children are incapable of voting in the first place...

How's that? Is there some sort of height restriction? I know if my nieces and nephews went to a polling station with their parents, they'd love to do the same thing mommy and daddy are doing.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Re: Re: Re: Age rights- draw your lines

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
I can't speak for the performance of your genitalia, but mine were perfectly capable of displaying an obvious state of arousal when I was pre-pubescent. In fact, just last week in my house the conversation was halted when my friend's 3 year-old son took his clothes off and ran around sporting a rather impressive erection and shouting "Look at my big willie!".

That's freaking priceless .

And yes, pre-pubescant children can get aroused sexually, and in fact, infantile sexuality has been accepted by psycho-analysts since Freud.

[OzzyKP]

Really?! Wow, that's just bizarre. I had no idea. Ewwww.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I'd love to see how you take to parenthood.

[Sava]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Really?! Wow, that's just bizarre. I had no idea. Ewwww.

ageist

[Imran Siddiqui]

[Bill3000]

1- Leave full-time education.
um... Personally I'm more of a fan of the Japan/European style of education; let the kids who actually care about school stay in school, and kick the sh*tty kids out and give them the blue collar jobs. So, probably something like 15 or so, but only below a certain grade average/behavior, or something.

2- Drive a car.
18.

3- Drive a heavy goods vehicle or bus.
21

4- Work a 12-hour shift down a coal mine.

5- Have sex.
14.

6- Buy porn.
13.

7- Appear in porn in an obvious state of physical arousal.
16.

8- Get married.
21

9- See front-line service in the army.
18

10- Own a 12-bore shotgun.

11- Vote.
18. (Heh, years ago I would have wanted to lower this to 14 or something, but after viewing the idiocy of many teens, I wouldn't change it at all.)

12- Become President.
25

13- Have a credit card, personal loan or mortgage.
21. 18 year olds are too irresponsible, and it can ruin thier lives.


14- Adopt children.
21. ...ya know, there should be a parenting license.

15- Gamble.
18

16- Get executed.
18


17- Buy a pet. Like a Pit Bull or a Python, or something.
16, if responsible enough.