Taiwan: Would War be viable?

[Whoha]

Originally posted by GePap


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...wait, let me catch my breath....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I am sorry, but this by itself has shot your credibility down to bellow zero.

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/panama.canal/stories/operation/

A front company for the PLA controls both ends of the canal and some naval base real estate.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Whoha

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/panama.canal/stories/operation/

A front company for the PLA controls both ends of the canal and some naval base real estate.

Which is essentially completely irrelevant. The US still has effective control of the canal, especially since they can always quickly send in another military force to take control of the area if Panama doesn't toe their line in wartime. China isn't in a position to project any force in that area. Part of the current Panama Canal policy is special arrangements to quietly allow US subs to cross the canal. The reality is that if the Chinese company tried to block US acess to the canal during wartime, the Panamanian government would overrule them since they want to avoid a US invasion.

[Drake Tungsten]

Why would China want to block US access to the canal? I'm sure Beijing is perfectly content with merely having spies on either end of the canal that can keep tabs on any American ships passing through...

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Why would China want to block US access to the canal? I'm sure Beijing is perfectly content with merely having spies on either end of the canal that can keep tabs on any American ships passing through...

I'm honestly not sure how much good that actually does China. US Carriers are too big to use the canal anyway and would go around South America. I'm pretty sure the way it works with US submarines is they just know a submarine has gone through the canal, not which one. Its also true that a substancial part of the US fleet is ordinarily based in the Pacific, and other ships currently in the Middle East would not be going through the canal to get to the area around Taiwan. The thing is only a portion of the US fleet is needed to deal with China, so keeping track of ships going through the Panama Canal isn't going to be that helpful since they have to worry about more than sufficient naval capability to defeat China regardless.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Mordoch

I'm honestly not sure how much good that actually does China. US Carriers are too big to use the canal anyway and would go around South America. I'm pretty sure the way it works with US submarines is they just know a submarine has gone through the canal, not which one. Its also true that a substancial part of the US fleet is ordinarily based in the Pacific, and other ships currently in the Middle East would not be going through the canal to get to the area around Taiwan. The thing is only a portion of the US fleet is needed to deal with China, so keeping track of ships going through the Panama Canal isn't going to be that helpful since they have to worry about more than sufficient naval capability to defeat China regardless.

But if thing got hot, I'm sure the Chinese there have some plans on how to hurt us.

[GePap]

hello to the universe Whoha inhabits:

THe Canal itself is run by a quasi public organization, so who own territory on the old canal zone is irrelevant to the every day operations of the Panama Canal. That a company has a contract to run the ports is utterly irrelevant to the ability of anyone to move throught the canal.

So yes, my hysterical laughter at utterly insane and complete wrong assertions by nuts that China "controls" the canal were fully justified.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Joseph
But if thing got hot, I'm sure the Chinese there have some plans on how to hurt us.

Its definately not so easy or clear what China can do here. Sabataging the canal so it is innopperable for a long period is actually pretty difficult. The canal is also a key route for shipping worldwide, so China risks angering alot of nations by doing so, and besides sanctions, certain nations do have the potential capability to intervene in this conflict in a militarily significant way. Its also true that the US is going to be tipped off to Chinese mobilization in preperation for an invasion significant in advanced due to satellite data, and may start moving forces from the Atlantic to the Pacific before China actually attacks Taiwan or the US declares war on China. If China actually launched what would be charactorized as a terrorist attack on the Panama Canal before the US even says its going to intervene on Taiwan's side, this guarantees that the US isn't going to back out of this conflict until they have stopped China from taking Taiwan.

Basicly screwing around with the Canal is far more trouble than its worth for China.

[GePap]

Why are people discussing this banal idocy? Heck, TAIWAN has control of the Canal, OMG! Evergreen has an butt ugly skyscrapper in Panama City.....the TAIWANESE will blow up MEXICO!!!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
the TAIWANESE will blow up MEXICO!!!

Tease.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Sound like you. Except you just get annoying after a while.

Annoying pseudo-left dilettantes is a bonus.

[:) Smiley]

Originally posted by GePap
Why are people discussing this banal idocy? Heck, TAIWAN has control of the Canal, OMG! Evergreen has an butt ugly skyscrapper in Panama City.....the TAIWANESE will blow up MEXICO!!!

Evergreen is everywhere... they even have their own bottled water and symphony orchestra, in addition to a shockingly bad web design department.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by GePap
hello to the universe Whoha inhabits:

The Canal itself is run by a quasi public organization, so who own territory on the old canal zone is irrelevant to the every day operations of the Panama Canal. That a company has a contract to run the ports is utterly irrelevant to the ability of anyone to move throught the canal.

So yes, my hysterical laughter at utterly insane and complete wrong assertions by nuts that China "controls" the canal were fully justified.

Ok, I'm not going to argue with you about how valuable to China that territory would be, or how much the ability to interdict travel through the canal from it would be, or any of your word mincing about whether or not China has absolute control of NK or not, but back to the argument at hand, China is playing the game every bit as much as we are, and they are not the innocent angels you make them out to be.

[Mr. Harley]

Lifting the European arms embargo is significant, and unpleasant development for US military interests. From Janes 1995 - and this is a DECADE old I cannot afford the subscription. Foreign or foreign assisted items are in bold face, I may miss a few because this is not my field of expertise, i.e. Chinese copies of foreign military hardware.

This is just one example I could have cited - I chose the first destroyer class listed - after submarines. They have ALOT of equipment they have imported from Russia and the Europeans, and yes even the US - look at the powerplants. Try looking at this and telling me that European arms imports to China are not significant.

Luhu (type 052) class DDG

Main machinery - 2 GE LM 2500 gas/turbines

Missles : SSM : 8 YJ-1 (Eagle Strike) (C-801) active radar homing to 40 km (possible extended range version) at 0.9 Mach, warhead 165 kg, sea-skimmer makes very hard to defeat
SAM : 1 Thomason-CSF Crotale octuple launcher

Guns : 2-100mm/56 twin (18 rounds/minute)
8 x 37mm/63 (4 twin) (180 rounds per minute)

Torpedoes : 6-324mm Whitehead B515 (2 triple) tubes. Whitehead A 244s : anti-submarine

A/S Mortars : 2 FQF 2500 (Chinese built)

Contermeasures : Decoys 2 SRBOC Mk 33; 6 barrelled Chaff launchers. 2 China 26-barrelled Chaff launchers.

Combat data systems : Thomson-CSF TAVITAC.

Radars : Air Search : Rice Screen #D G band. Hai Ying: G band.
Air/surface Search : Thompson-CSF Sea Tiger E/F band.
Navigation: I-band
Fire Control : Type 34-7G I band. Two Rice Lamp I band.
Sonars : hull mounted active search andattack, meium frequency.
VDS: active attack medium frequency.

Helicopters: 2 Harbin Z9A (Dauphin)

[:) Smiley]

There is another way to look at this. Blowing lots of money on imported weaponry is going to hurt China's long term growth and economic power.

Here is something to think about

Peace is one big waste of equipment.
-from antiwar play "Mother Courage and Her Children"

[GePap]

Originally posted by Whoha


Ok, I'm not going to argue with you about how valuable to China that territory would be, or how much the ability to interdict travel through the canal from it would be, or any of your word mincing about whether or not China has absolute control of NK or not, but back to the argument at hand, China is playing the game every bit as much as we are, and they are not the innocent angels you make them out to be.

No, the Chinese are no innocent angels, but at least you, unlike PLATO it seems, acknowledges we also play the game.