Rugby - Hands Off, Wattle!

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Havak


The IRB issued an edict in the late nineties that teams will face it meakly and quietly and at least 10M away or else. Some team should have had the courage to investigate the or else part.

The haka was not conceived for the opposing team to face it meekly and quietly. Therefore, we can understand the IRB edict as expressing with humour the authorisation to face it any how, PROVIDED this thing is done at least 10M away.

[LDiCesare]

The French should face the Haka with offering some vin chaud to the opponents, who would be very impolite to refuse. And wine never altered anyone's qualities. Or we could pop out some champagne bottles and look at the kiwis trying to dodge the bouchons (I don't know in English, but a bouchon in French means both the little, inocuous thing used to taper a bottle, and the big hit you give an opponent when you run into him and push him back 2 meters away on the tackle).
I'm sure we could find some interesting ways to face the Haka if only we gave it some thought.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


Actually you can’t Finbar. The IRB issued an edict in the late nineties that teams will face it meakly and quietly and at least 10M away or else. Some team should have had the courage to investigate the or else part.

It was probably the Wallabies turning their backs on the haka in the mid-90s that brought about the edict. I'm not sure about the edict. It seems to enshrine the haka as some sort of defacto national anthem rather than what it's meant to be. Or was, originally, meant to be.

I’m not in work w/b 31st May so you may even be online before I return.

I hope to be online the day we arrive. I've got too many long-running online battles to maintain.

I thought Mehrtens was a good bench prospect for the tests?

I think he probably is. Presumably Carter will start, but the ranks of 5/8s behind him are only promising. Nick Evans from the Highlanders had a taste last season but, from memory, at full back.

Who has displaced Carlos at Blues? Nipping the mouths heels?

Tasea Lavea. I saw his first couple of games and I wondered why they'd preferred him to Carlos. He looked jumpy and uncertain and his field kicking was erratic at best. I haven't seen him recently, perhaps he has settled down. Although since Carlos' injury, they probably haven't had another option. For a team loaded with talent as they are, the Blues are making very hard work of winning matches. They were down something like 20 points against the Stormers on the weekend before coming back to win comfortably. Still, I suppose they're winning.

What we should do is drink a cup of tea right after the Haka – it’s traditional after all. And all that nice psyche up adrenalin will flow out the ABs whilst we do.

Pity J**** has retired. England could reply with their own tradition - J**** being yellow carded.

[finbar]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
The French should face the Haka with offering some vin chaud to the opponents, who would be very impolite to refuse. And wine never altered anyone's qualities. Or we could pop out some champagne bottles and look at the kiwis trying to dodge the bouchons (I don't know in English, but a bouchon in French means both the little, inocuous thing used to taper a bottle, and the big hit you give an opponent when you run into him and push him back 2 meters away on the tackle).
I'm sure we could find some interesting ways to face the Haka if only we gave it some thought.

A bouchon is a cork. I'd've thought 15 Bleus shaking up and uncorking 15 bottles of Veuve and aiming the corks at the haka would take the ABs' minds off what they're doing!

[Havak]

I'm sure we could find some interesting ways to face the Haka if only we gave it some thought.

But we can’t because the IRB did indeed stipulate it should be treated with ‘appropriate respect’, which has actually turned out to mean you can’t do anything at all whilst they do it.

I do like the vin chaud idea though.

I'm not sure about the edict.

If they want it as the anthem then fine – do it at the time of the anthems.

In the space of a few years we had the Wallabies turning their back – Scot Hastings chipping the ball all around it and the English hooker standing face to face with Maxwell accepting the challenge. It was Cockerills face to face that seemed to force the 10M idea through.

The NZ Union then starting bleating in a way that would even shame Sir Clive – it might be a challenge but the opposition should not respond to it – that is deucedly unfair.

I’m against it unless all sides are allowed thirty seconds before a game to do whatever they want – Morris dancing, Pom baiting or in the case of the French in the amateur days a *** and a glass of wine.

I hope to be online the day we arrive. I've got too many long-running online battles to maintain.

All kicking off of the cooking forums then?

Tasea Lavea. I saw his first couple of games and I wondered why they'd preferred him to Carlos. He looked jumpy and uncertain and his field kicking was erratic at best

He sounds more North Auckland than Maori? Carlos has pretty much made it clear all year that without an AB berth he is heading north – Blues might be looking to the future even if the lad is not good enough right now?

Pity J**** has retired. England could reply with their own tradition - J**** being yellow carded.

The latest card was dismissed on appeal!

At least two more games for Jonno!

The ruling:

“Having studied the video evidence, we were not convinced that there was a fight. We concluded that Johnson was illegally removed from the maul in a manner that was dangerous and left him on his back in an exposed position. We have also studied the video of his immediate reaction, and we are satisfied that there was contact as he turned towards Ben Russell. But we are not satisfied to the required standard that the contact amounted to foul play justifying a yellow card."

To interpret that for you Jonno pushed Russell, no punching was involved.

And by god we need him on Saturday so I’m very pleased. We lost Moody and Rowntree for the season playing those gentle Frenchmen.

A bouchon is a cork. I'd've thought 15 Bleus shaking up and uncorking 15 bottles of Veuve and aiming the corks at the haka would take the ABs' minds off what they're doing!

Personally I like the idea of having the girls form the Moulin Rouge perform a counter to the haka immediately afterwards. But that may just be me.

Anyone remember a player called Jonny Wilkinson? Promising lad who used to play for England? He has been named on the Canadian tour squad for June – big non test fixtures against the Canucks and the Eagles. Four years ago Corry was summoned form this tour to Australia late on and ended up playing all three tests. I would imagine Wilko has similar hopes.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
If they want it as the anthem then fine – do it at the time of the anthems.

My point precisely.

or in the case of the French in the amateur days a *** and a glass of wine.

Or in the case of that blonde-tipped Toulousian #8, all he needed was a glass of wine!

All kicking off of the cooking forums then?

It can get pretty tough in the vegie growing forum too!

He sounds more North Auckland than Maori? Carlos has pretty much made it clear all year that without an AB berth he is heading north – Blues might be looking to the future even if the lad is not good enough right now?

I think that's the case. One thing about NZ rugby, they don't deal very much in sentiment. When they want a clean out, they have a clean out. Sometimes not for the better. Speaking of which, what happened to Taine Randall? Is he up there somewhere?

To interpret that for you Jonno pushed Russell, no punching was involved.

They viewed it through J****-coloured glasses. Talk about sentiment in rugby!

Anyone remember a player called Jonny Wilkinson? Promising lad who used to play for England? He has been named on the Canadian tour squad for June – big non test fixtures against the Canucks and the Eagles. Four years ago Corry was summoned form this tour to Australia late on and ended up playing all three tests. I would imagine Wilko has similar hopes.

What does that selection really mean? That he's being parked on that tour to get some match practice into him? I'm sure he'd like to emulate Corry, but two rugbyless years followed by a couple of matches against some eskimos would, I'd imagine, be far from Corry's lead up last time. If they're serious about using him against NZ, they're better off taking him and playing him against some provinces. Or are they just giving him some games in anticipation of next season?

[Havak]

Speaking of which, what happened to Taine Randall? Is he up there somewhere?

He is with Sarries but currently injured.

They viewed it through J****-coloured glasses. Talk about sentiment in rugby!

My own perspective is that the Sarries lad should have been red carded and Jonno applauded for not hitting the little ****. Note the Saracens yellow card in the same incident was upheld.

If they're serious about using him against NZ, they're better off taking him and playing him against some provinces. Or are they just giving him some games in anticipation of next season?

Good point about the preparation – Corry’s was far more robust (coming off a Tigers League and Europe double)

I still think it is all mind games. If fit I expect him to fly to NZ not to Canada. Who Clive thinks he is fooling I do not know.

Interesting titbit about Jonno from the weekend press – when pressed on the Lions he said no consistently until the journo asked “not even if they had an injury crisis?”. His reply “well yes of course I would then”.

Should I worry about Clive going around tripping up the other locks now?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


He is with Sarries but currently injured.

Has he contributed anything when fit?

My own perspective is that the Sarries lad should have been red carded and Jonno applauded for not hitting the little ****. Note the Saracens yellow card in the same incident was upheld.

His name wasn't J****!

I still think it is all mind games. If fit I expect him to fly to NZ not to Canada. Who Clive thinks he is fooling I do not know.

I think the ABs would be quite looking forward to him playing on nil preparation.

Interesting titbit about Jonno from the weekend press – when pressed on the Lions he said no consistently until the journo asked “not even if they had an injury crisis?”. His reply “well yes of course I would then”.

He has a dry wit.

So, with all your knowledge, experience and judgement, which team will disappear down a division next weekend?

[Havak]

I can catch nuances of sarcasm as well as Martin’s dry wit you know.

The permutations are many and various. Quins have 37 points, Worcester have 38 and Northampton, Leeds and London Irish have 39. Critically Leeds and the exiles have better points differences than Saints.

Quins host Sale at home, Saints visit Worcester, Leeds are away to Bath and Exiles at Newcastle. All the teams in the mix therefore have tough fixtures.

But here is my call – Quins are favourites to go down as Sale are too good for them. That’s my head speaking. My heart says I hope Worcester thump Northampton and that Saints then go down. Saints deserve the drop on two points – converting to a foreign legion over the last two seasons AND critically supplying Lardy to England as their only contribution!

As for Taine he has been injured more than he has played. Sarries have made a late charge for the play offs (too late I believe – barring maths miracles) but Taine has not figured in it due to injury. I think the sheer volume of rugby in our Leagues catches out a lot of SH retirees and their bodies betray them (remember Timmy Horan, with Sarries for four seasons and played one seasons worth of games?)

His name wasn't J****!

It was Russell – same surname as the previous Sarries player that got Jonno unfairly banned back in 2002.

I think the ABs would be quite looking forward to him playing on nil preparation.

Quite. Realistically he should not go on the tour. But I am sure he will. I have a feeling this Lions team may have a 99 call in the back pocket for when their half back’s are creamed. It is traditional in New Zealand after all.

[Caligastia]

The Brumbies coach is talking about shaking up his starting lineup for the match in Wellington this weekend. Sounds like desperate stuff. It's a must-win game for the Brumbies, and coming back from a big losing streak against the 'canes at home will be a big ask.

I expect it will still be close, but the Hurricanes should win. Hopefuly they do win...it'll make their upcoming matches against the Blues and the Crusaders that much more interesting.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I can catch nuances of sarcasm as well as Martin’s dry wit you know.

Unfair. I'm constantly in awe of your knowledge, experience and judgement.

But here is my call – Quins are favourites to go down as Sale are too good for them. That’s my head speaking. My heart says I hope Worcester thump Northampton and that Saints then go down. Saints deserve the drop on two points – converting to a foreign legion over the last two seasons AND critically supplying Lardy to England as their only contribution!

I'm also constantly in awe of your perversity! So if Quins go down, will the likes of Greenwood go down with them? Or will he move?

I think the sheer volume of rugby in our Leagues catches out a lot of SH retirees and their bodies betray them (remember Timmy Horan, with Sarries for four seasons and played one seasons worth of games?)

Fair point. The SH blokes must find the volume pretty exhausting.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
The Brumbies coach is talking about shaking up his starting lineup for the match in Wellington this weekend. Sounds like desperate stuff. It's a must-win game for the Brumbies, and coming back from a big losing streak against the 'canes at home will be a big ask.

Mmmmm. In order to shake up a lineup, you need someone available to insert into the team. Larkham and Rathbone have both failed fitness tests for this week and Gregan is out with his broken leg. The only fresh players he has available to him are a couple of utter rookies who played well very early in the season. I suppose they could reappear. But they played well when Larkham was there to guide and lead them. He's not going to be there.

[ravagon]

Nicking players from over east isn't enough for WA any more. Now they've grabbed some lad who's been playing for Munster. I forget his name.
I suppose that was the intent of the ARU however ...

Given that the haka has been brought up as a point of contention (yet) again I guess I don't really need to go back a page or two to find out the original source, nor do I need to consult an oracle to find out that the Tigers have probably fallen flat on their faces somewhere, do I?

[Hmmm. Ok so the 'usual suspect' didn't actually bring it up but he did take the ball and run with it so I feel rather vindicated. ]

I can only repeat what I said the last time this came up. I have no objection whatsoever to other teams coming up with their own response, as long as it's in the same spirit.

I eagerly await Havak's response, which will undoubtably be full of his usual well-thought-out, unbiased and illuminating comments.

[Havak]

I’m sure it will.

[Hmmm. Ok so the 'usual suspect' didn't actually bring it up but he did take the ball and run with it so I feel rather vindicated. ]

Now that’s an apology/retraction worthy of a barrister!

Perhaps then we should turn on the real target of the situation – the IRB. For it is the IRB that allows the ABs and a few Island nations this concession whilst refusing all other requests for immediate pre-match activities. Just ask the ARU.

So I guess the point is the situation is inequitable. I’m glad to see you don’t mind other nations finding their own responses – but it has to be in the same ‘spirit’? So who to your mind should arbitrate on this matter of ‘spirit’? You will recall the Australians have been refused on many occasions the right to play Waltzing Matilda pre match when away from home? I guess the fact this is a little (and admittedly thoroughly annoying) patriotic ditty mean it is in the wrong spirit compared to the challenge dance of the Haka? I cannot agree.

Unfair. I'm constantly in awe of your knowledge, experience and judgement.

I'm also constantly in awe of your perversity! So if Quins go down, will the likes of Greenwood go down with them? Or will he move?

I know from Quins previous brushes with relegation that Greenwood has a parachute clause to his contract – he will leave immediately.

Of course Quins being relegated would mean my former DOR and cult Hero Deano would be taking the reigns of them in the second flight next season.

Fair point. The SH blokes must find the volume pretty exhausting.

Well to be fair - because I don’t like to be well-thought-out, unbiased and illuminating all the time - everyone finds it exhausting. And something must be done.

Breaking the club system in England is a no-no (the clubs have all the player assetts under contract so are pretty powerful) – so Wales and Ireland’s solutions of provinces are not open to us. Building huge French type squads is not possible because we are salary capped. Re-organisation of the competitions is the way to go – but that requires huge co-operation (RFU, sponsors, clubs, ERP and ERC) and rugby has no great history of such co-operation (here at least).

I have not said this for a few weeks so forgive the indulgence – will someone please sack Robinson so his successor has some time before the Autumn tests.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Nicking players from over east isn't enough for WA any more. Now they've grabbed some lad who's been playing for Munster. I forget his name.

David Pusey. Lock. Moved to Munster a couple of years ago from the Brumbies. He didn't see much future at the Brumbies with the likes of Plank and Vickerman in front of him.

I eagerly await Havak's response, which will undoubtably be full of his usual well-thought-out, unbiased and illuminating comments.

Ah! Another Havak admirer. I knew there had to be another one out there somewhere.