Rugby - Hands Off, Wattle!

[ravagon]

He is being serious. I think wally is putting it mildly.

If the news last night was anything to go by Perth is indeed targetting Henjak. Rathbone too, apparently.
I wonder how long it'll take the ARU to figure out that their policy of discouraging S14 recruitment from outside the pool of players eligible to play for the Wallabies just wasn't a very good idea.
Personally, given the makeup of the WA population (supposedly over 50% are not actually from WA), I would've liked to see as much diversity as possible - Put together a core group of internationals late in their careers just to get things rolling - a few each Boks, Kiwi's, a few more Pacific Islanders, a smattering from the British Isles perhaps and at least one player from either France/Italy/Argentina just for the flair/diversity factor.
There would've been time to develop local talent and slowly integrate more Australian players over the next few years as the starting lineup gradually retired ...

Your colleague actually means that as a compliment – it’s one of the greatest we can give in fact. They must like you.

Mmmm ... I probably don't want to know what you lot call someone you don't like then?

[finbar]

Changing the Wallaby-eligible requirement for Oz S12 (or S14) teams is a road best not travelled, methinks. The strength of a national team is contingent upon the pool of available talent, and, more importantly, the competition between that talent for a place in the national team. Competition between players for advancement improves them. Allowing non-eligible players into the mix only dilutes it.

The existence of the Perth franchise is predicated on the ARU's argument that Australia had the player depth - locally-based and/or overseas-based - to support an extra franchise. I've never been as sure as the ARU are of their argument. We shall see.

[ravagon]

I guess it depends upon ones point of view really. IMO 'diluting' the pool of players eligible for selection with a group of high quality, albeit non-eligible players, while it will effectively reduce the total pool of new local players in competition, will increase their quality to a greater degree.
ie: pretty much the same argument that the second echelon international sides have been using for years now applies here too.

As it is now though, by basically forcing recruiting from the eastern sides, while they are increasing the total number of eligible players, I can't really see that they're adding as much.
Afterall if it were just a matter of putting more players in I'd've thought the Reds would've tried to recuit from farther afield (ie: WA, SA, etc) long ago to try and eke their way out of the doldrums at the bottom of the table.
The cost, of effectively gutting the Reds, probably kneecapping the Brumbies and I'd guess the Warratahs may lose a toe or two as well before all's said and done, may end up being rather high for your domestic teams.
The former may not be much of a loss but if the two quality teams suffer some lean years as a consequence I can't see it going down too well.
In any case though, it's done and, as you say, we shall see.
I'd guess there might be a few local WA lads 'competing' for Wallaby places in as few as 3-5 years but that's a shot in the dark...


Hey Havak, you can wipe that look of glee off your face at the thought of the All-Blacks crushing an under-strength Welsh side. The IRB has officially sanctioned the match now so they should (potentially) be at full strength come Nov 5th.

[Havak]

Destined I feel to rapidly go the way of such inspired marketing ideas as ‘Gloucester Gladiators’ and ‘Rotherham Titans’ (talk about misnomers!).

Put together a core group of internationals late in their careers just to get things rolling - a few each Boks, Kiwi's, a few more Pacific Islanders, a smattering from the British Isles perhaps and at least one player from either France/Italy/Argentina just for the flair/diversity factor.

The problem is last time we looked at average salaries S12 was paying significantly less on average than a Premiership contract – and that for makeweight players. Fine there are less games but that would probably mean patched up end of career UK players heading for the franchise so they didn’t have to play too often – surely not good for Perth. Boks, Islanders and Kiwis is a good idea – I have never liked Australias closed franchises. there are dangers to changing it though - but as they will only weaken Australia I am not too bothered about that.

Mmmm ... I probably don't want to know what you lot call someone you don't like then?

Typically? Welsh. Or French. And if we really dislike you then Aussie of course. And having offended the entire thread I now move swiftly on.

The strength of a national team is contingent upon the pool of available talent, and, more importantly, the competition between that talent for a place in the national team. Competition between players for advancement improves them. Allowing non-eligible players into the mix only dilutes it.

Simply look at the English Premiership and the shortage of English centres playing in it for supporting evidence of Finbar’s point.

A delicate balance is needed if you open up your franchises. There is no doubt that the foreign talent in our game over the last decade did help advance the national game considerably as it went Professional. It needs watching though or Perth will end up like London Irish – a foreign legion not providing a single player to any home nation in the 6N – and therefore not helping the UK game at all.

The IRB has officially sanctioned the match now so they should (potentially) be at full strength come Nov 5th.

The problem is the IRB sanction just makes it a test match. It has no bearing on existing agreements with the clubs about International windows. To clarify my point the Lions versus Argentina game in May is a sanctioned game – but the French league is still playing so Gareth Thomas and Stephen Jones will not be released because it isn’t being played during the International windows negotiated with the member Unions.

I therefore maintain that French and English clubs will not release players for it – and that means an AB landslide (lets face it on the back on a Lions series defeat and coming third in the tri-nations the ABs will be a dangerously wounded animal so Wales are in for a backlash).

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
I guess it depends upon ones point of view really. IMO 'diluting' the pool of players eligible for selection with a group of high quality, albeit non-eligible players, while it will effectively reduce the total pool of new local players in competition, will increase their quality to a greater degree.

How will it increase their quality?

As it is now though, by basically forcing recruiting from the eastern sides, while they are increasing the total number of eligible players, I can't really see that they're adding as much.
Afterall if it were just a matter of putting more players in I'd've thought the Reds would've tried to recuit from farther afield (ie: WA, SA, etc) long ago to try and eke their way out of the doldrums at the bottom of the table.
The cost, of effectively gutting the Reds, probably kneecapping the Brumbies and I'd guess the Warratahs may lose a toe or two as well before all's said and done, may end up being rather high for your domestic teams.
The former may not be much of a loss but if the two quality teams suffer some lean years as a consequence I can't see it going down too well.

The reality is that, ultimately, there are only two sources of rugby players in this country - Sydney club rugby and Brisbane club rugby. Canberra has a healthy club comp, but on a much smaller scale. The Reds, Waratahs and Brumbies source their players from mainly Sydney and Brisbane clubs. That's one of our problems in this country - Victoria, WA, SA and Tasmania's club comps are very, very small beer. Very enthusiastic, but very limited.

So the question is this: are there enough players in two and a half club comps to populate four S14 franchises? Given that a franchise list is, I think, about 32 or 33 players. The ARU thinks there are. The ARU thinks there are players good enough for S12 but unable to secure contracts because the existing franchises have filled their player quotas. They also think there are overseas-based local players who could (or might) return to add to the numbers.

As we agree, we shall see.

I'd guess there might be a few local WA lads 'competing' for Wallaby places in as few as 3-5 years but that's a shot in the dark...

That has to be one of the aims. How long it will take is another matter.

Hey Havak, you can wipe that look of glee off your face at the thought of the All-Blacks crushing an under-strength Welsh side. The IRB has officially sanctioned the match now so they should (potentially) be at full strength come Nov 5th.

His East Midlands grin will only widen because he will now anticipate the ABs crushing a full-strength Taffy team.

[finbar]

Perth have signed Waratahs 5/8 Lachie Mackay. That's a coup, if not a total surprise. Very good young player, tall and muscular for a 5/8, built like a centre, former Wallaby U21 skipper. He's been one of the keys to the Waratahs' success this year with great drive and distribution. The Waratahs will be immensely p*ssed off to lose him.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Havak
edit...........(lets face it on the back on a Lions series defeat and coming third in the tri-nations the ABs will be a dangerously wounded animal so Wales are in for a backlash).

Oh ye of little faith

[Caligastia]

As usual I have to post way after the fact now that my TV coverage is so delayed.

When was the last time the Brumbies lost four in a row Finbar? Has it ever happened before?

The name of that new WA Super 12 team sounds stupid. The least they could do is come up with a name that is plural! Also, I don't think Australia has enough talent to go around for another Super 12 team. The Force will end up being the whipping boys at the bottom of the table with the Cats.

[finbar]

The Brumbies lost four in a row in 2002 but recovered to make the grand final. With Gregan now out for four to six weeks, on top of the other injuries, it's hard to see that sort of recovery this year.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak

The problem is last time we looked at average salaries S12 was paying significantly less on average than a Premiership contract – and that for makeweight players. Fine there are less games but that would probably mean patched up end of career UK players heading for the franchise so they didn’t have to play too often – surely not good for Perth.

Well, the salary issue I have no answer for. That was a bit of an issue even for domestic players iirc. I was actually thinking primarily of imports in the late twilights of their careers though. Just for a couple of seasons to give the team a kick to start with so to speak.

Typically? Welsh. Or French. And if we really dislike you then Aussie of course. And having offended the entire thread I now move swiftly on.

You did realise that was supposed to be rhetorical didn't you?
Yes, rereading it I'm quite sure you probably did.

Simply look at the English Premiership and the shortage of English centres playing in it for supporting evidence of Finbar’s point.

A delicate balance is needed if you open up your franchises. There is no doubt that the foreign talent in our game over the last decade did help advance the national game considerably as it went Professional. It needs watching though or Perth will end up like London Irish – a foreign legion not providing a single player to any home nation in the 6N – and therefore not helping the UK game at all.

If you're talking soccer here then yes I agree but you also have to consider English players in the other European leagues. Bekham, for example may not be a major part of the EPL anymore but that has little bearing on his England status.
I'm not so sure that's easily comparable quite honestly due to the absolutely enormous focus on soccer in Europe. European clubs really do rule the soccer world (unlike rugby ).
I don't think you could argue that the dispersion of players has seriously hurt the English national side either. They may not have actually won the WC since the late 60's iirc but they've been right up there almost every time.

The problem is the IRB sanction just makes it a test match. It has no bearing on existing agreements with the clubs about International windows.

Didn't realise that. I was under the impression that gave a national side the ability to override domestic clubs.

... (lets face it on the back on a Lions series defeat and coming third in the tri-nations the ABs will be a dangerously wounded animal so Wales are in for a backlash).

Is that what I look like when I post before I've woken up?

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

How will it increase their quality?

I was thinking of it from the point of view of a national competition - forgetting that you don't have one.
More quality players -> tougher opposition for the east coast provincial teams (and hopefully the west coast players learning more from their own imports). I'm not that familiar with the London Irish (I'll take Havak's word for their diverse composition) but I imagine they at least provide a better level of opposition for the rest of the club sides?
Given that you have quality opponents already though in many of the other S12/14 sides (shut up Havak) it may be a moot point.

So the question is this: are there enough players in two and a half club comps to populate four S14 franchises? Given that a franchise list is, I think, about 32 or 33 players. The ARU thinks there are. The ARU thinks there are players good enough for S12 but unable to secure contracts because the existing franchises have filled their player quotas. They also think there are overseas-based local players who could (or might) return to add to the numbers.

I hadn't realised there was quite such a shortage of local clubs in the other states. Had there been such a surplus of talent the Reds, having more to gain than either of the others, surely would have done a better job of taking advantage of it...

Mackay is a surprise. I've been keeping what I thought was a fairly close eye on most of the candidates and I hadn't heard his name come up.
Of course that was probably the idea ...

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Caligastia
The Force will end up being the whipping boys at the bottom of the table with the Cats.

I don't have terribly high hopes for the first season or two but with the amount of poaching going on they might well come up with a reasonable stable of players and finish somewhere in the middle if they're (extremely) lucky.
Of course at the moment it's looking as though that'll be to the detriment of most of the other Australian teams ...

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Well, the salary issue I have no answer for. That was a bit of an issue even for domestic players iirc. I was actually thinking primarily of imports in the late twilights of their careers though. Just for a couple of seasons to give the team a kick to start with so to speak.

You couldn't create an exemption for one franchise. It would have to apply across the board. But Havak's point - lower wages attracting lower quality players - is a very good one, and as strong an argument against the notion as the dilution argument.

Mackay is just a big a signing for Perth as Nathan Sharpe. Perhaps, in a way, even bigger. It's known that Sharpe signed for a huge financial package underpinned by private money. Cannon signed because he knew his days as starting hooker with the Waratahs were numbered. Mackay won't be earning much more than he has been with the Waratahs. And he would have remained the starting 5/8 for the Waratahs, so a guaranteed starting role wouldn't have been a major factor - as it could be with someone like Matt Henjak. And the Waratahs were a known quantity, having their best season for a decade, while Perth are an utterly unknown quantity, possibly even a disaster waiting to happen. So why did he sign? The challenge. And he's a good enough player - a very promising player - for his decision perhaps to sway some other players in similar situations.

In short, Perth will build a strong central core. Where I think they might struggle is in the back-ups. They've already made it hard for themselves by deciding not to release back-ups to return to their Sydney or Brisbane club rugby comps, which is what the other franchises do. It keeps the back-ups fit and practising. Perth will have them sitting around twiddling their thumbs. Not a sensible decision.

If you're talking soccer here then yes I agree but you also have to consider English players in the other European leagues. Bekham, for example may not be a major part of the EPL anymore but that has little bearing on his England status.
I'm not so sure that's easily comparable quite honestly due to the absolutely enormous focus on soccer in Europe. European clubs really do rule the soccer world (unlike rugby ).
I don't think you could argue that the dispersion of players has seriously hurt the English national side either. They may not have actually won the WC since the late 60's iirc but they've been right up there almost every time.

No, he's talking about English rugby. The influx of foreign players into the premier club comp has hindered the development of England-eligible players. Havak mentions the lack of quality England-eligible centres, I'd add the lack of quality England-eligible breakaways to the list. It's the same problem that haunted English cricket for so many years - counties playing experienced imports for short-term premiership gain instead of developing local talent. Their cricket admins have addressed the problem by (a) strictly limiting the imports; and (b) introducing an Academy based on the Australian one. As Havak says, it's a fine line - good foreign players can lift a standard and also educate the local talent - but it's a line far too easy to cross.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
I'm not that familiar with the London Irish (I'll take Havak's word for their diverse composition) but I imagine they at least provide a better level of opposition for the rest of the club sides?

Far from it. London Irish are - and, mostly, have been - a crap rugby outfit. They're a serious candidate for demotion from the premier league this season.

I hadn't realised there was quite such a shortage of local clubs in the other states. Had there been such a surplus of talent the Reds, having more to gain than either of the others, surely would have done a better job of taking advantage of it...

The Reds' problem isn't so much a lack of available talent as - well, serious mind-set flaws. Historically, Queensland rugby is deeply conservative, small-minded - quelle surprise! for Queensland - and faction-ridden. (NSW rugby has had its faction problems over the years, mixed with some absolute incompetence, but has cleaned up its act in recent times) For example, Queensland's last two coaches disappeared as a result of behind-the-scenes poison. The current coach appointed himself from his position as the Reds' CEO and he has shown little evidence of coaching ability. You only have to watch the team on the field to see the off-field problems manifesting themselves - Wendell Sailor, on the wing, a damaging runner with the ball, rarely sees the ball. The halves' first option is always to kick the ball away. Chris Latham - incidentally, not born in Queensland - breaks the mould. He's an attacking, destructive fullback. But he does it one-out. Which is why, when the Reds win, or are seriously competitive in a match, it's usually Latham's outstanding, one-out performance that does it. Why haven't they built their game around Latham's outstanding abilities? The answer to this question lies in the first two sentences of this paragraph.

Mackay is a surprise. I've been keeping what I thought was a fairly close eye on most of the candidates and I hadn't heard his name come up.
Of course that was probably the idea ...

It was kept under wraps, but it was known here that Mitchell had been talking to him for a long time. The Waratahs are seriously p*ssed off. He had a big future here, which makes his decision - which I've addressed in my other post - a crucial one for Perth.

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon

Of course at the moment it's looking as though that'll be to the detriment of most of the other Australian teams ...

That's life, that's business. It's a world very well-known to the two other winter professional sports in this country - L***** and AFL. The three S12 franchises were, effectively, protected species.