Rugby - Hands Off, Wattle!

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Originally posted by Havak
It might be. The thing with Neil is where he was consistent five years ago he now seems to save the big performances for the big games. Against Leinster he seemed ten years younger. Can he do that three times in three weeks? Not sure...but him and Williams are the only natural opensides making the trip.

I can see Clive using him off the bench in the second half when the game's tempo might be more sympathetic.

[Havak]

One of the weaknesses of this squad, I think, is the halves.

I agree. Ellis was not ready – Canada will season him – but he is certainly ahead of Cusiter who right now only has promise. Peel and Cooper are scrummies playing in a team doing well but neither has convinced me they are world class. And Dawson – I don’t think his focus is correct anymore (having been publically quoted last week saying his focus was on securing a contract extension at Wasps and not the Lions). It does look like a Welsh scrummy with Dawson on the bench – and that is weak.

Fly half is even worse – Jones is the only one anywhere near playing well. Hodgson has been tried and has failed at a lower level than the ABs. O’Gara is still injured! As is Thomas the fullback of course. Interesting isn’t it that he names some injured players – but lights a very public fire under Jonny?

The squad will be increased incidentally if anyone gets picked from now on.

Clive has done exactly what you predicted - picked his tried and trusted and/or favourites. And he will live or die by it.

And if he dies by it – it will be someone else’s fault as per usual.

I can see Clive using him off the bench in the second half when the game's tempo might be more sympathetic.

Logically you have to be right. But I remain troubled – Neil is a better player than Williams even now IMO and I think he is actually also fitter. Backy is obsessive about fitness in the same way Pat Howard was, he is still butchers dog fit – but he has lost some pace. I still think he is a better option to counter McCaw – he has the guile to make McCaw’s newly suspect temperament flare up.

I’ll also be providing a free information service for the tests – numbers of NZ players actually born there and number of British Isles players born here. I’ll give you a starter on that one – one of the English props picked was born a Bok.

[child of Thor]

@ Havak, your right about the fly-half/half back thing - for some reason there are a number of people that dont seem to be on the list. I know wales have used Peel at both no9+no10 - and he can play both if push comes to shove.
And henson can also play no10. Still as you say apart from Jones/hodgson/O'gara - there are no other stand out players, and of those Jones is the most reliable on current form. If he gets injured then it could be very costly.
Hodgson just seems to wobble every now and then, and O'gara is the same as he showed in that final game against wales.

Maybe Neil Jenkins or Rob Andrew could come out of retirement, just in case?

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Originally posted by Havak
O’Gara is still injured! As is Thomas the fullback of course. Interesting isn’t it that he names some injured players – but lights a very public fire under Jonny?

Yes, but at least O'Gara and Thomas have played whole games within the last 18 months. Personally, I think he'll be mad to take Wilkinson if he "proves his fitness", whatever that means. He might want to pick him, and the public might want him to, and Wilkinson might want to go, but a proven fragile player with perhaps a couple of games under his belt in close to two years? Disaster beckons.

I still think he is a better option to counter McCaw – he has the guile to make McCaw’s newly suspect temperament flare up.

The Bulls found the way to counter McCaw on the weekend. An accidental head clash with one of the Bulls' props knocked McCaw out cold. He was unconscious before he hit the ground. Scary to watch, actually. I'd imagine he'll be missing a few weeks.

I’ll also be providing a free information service for the tests – numbers of NZ players actually born there and number of British Isles players born here. I’ll give you a starter on that one – one of the English props picked was born a Bok.

Presumably not the one who wanted to be a Welshman?

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Originally posted by child of Thor
Maybe Neil Jenkins or Rob Andrew could come out of retirement, just in case?

Why did Clive stop at Dalaglio and Back? Why didn't he select Mr Webb Ellis himself?

[child of Thor]

well his 'crustiness' may put the wind up the polynesian all-blacks, in my experience the pacific islanders can be pretty superstitious

I just thought that im surprised to not see stringer in the mentions here for no9. Is he going? I think i'd definately pick him over dawson at the momment, he's a terrier of a scrum half with a great pass and can rough it ok.

just found this snippet:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4435793.stm

So the games begin it seems divide and conquer is that the AB plan? He should know that was tried along time ago - it might not work now.

[Havak]

Graham Henry knows all about camp tension – he is after all the only Lions coach to be reviled by his players before the tour even finished. It is as you say mind games – and where Eddie Jones is a master Graham Henry is a bumbling amateur – as you say he must try harder.

Have to disagree on Stringer – he had a poor six nations and has been playing on reputation since the 2002 European cup final. Dawson bossed him out of the 2003 Slam game and many have done the same since. It may look impressive when he bites at locks ankles (and I enjoy seeing him do so) – but it also frequently takes him out the game at just the wrong moment for his side.

I would honestly have taken the picks Clive has over Strings.

On the flip side I’m not all anglo-centric. I think Sidoli the Welsh lock did more than enough to travel. And I’d have Humphries over Hodgson!

Maybe Neil Jenkins or Rob Andrew could come out of retirement, just in case?

Hodgson has a nasty tendency to bottle it when things get tense – and not just in his kicking, his defence goes AWOL too.

There is of course a reason they pushed Jenko to 15 in his later days – he was getting murdered by the opposition flankers. Great player in his time though (as was the Mouth of Newcastle Mr Andrew).

They must select a specialist Ten – the ABs have had a year to convert their Centre-turned stand off, Peel and Henson are more effective in their primary positions and would have precious little time to adjust.

I have to ask – what is wrong with Andy Goode? He had a storming game against Sale – he was better than anything I have seen Hodgson do in an age. As it stands there is huge pressure on Jones to both deliver and stay fit – and he will be targeted mercilessly just like Wilko was in 2001.

but a proven fragile player with perhaps a couple of games under his belt in close to two years? Disaster beckons.

But that is the fairytale isn’t it – the prodigal returns and puts the Kiwi dragon to the sword?

It can be seen as nothing but a huge gamble – I still feel it will happen if he ‘proves his fitness’.

I'd imagine he'll be missing a few weeks.

Is loss of consciousness still three weeks mandatory lay off?

Sorry to hear that anyway – I like McCaw even though his is maturing into an angsty type of player. That’s one advantage Backy does enjoy over him – a head of solid stone. I have seen Backy take head collisions that I know would have knocked me cold, and he just springs back up.

Presumably not the one who wanted to be a Welshman?

No, that is Duncan Bell of Bath – he might travel to Canada as all the other capped English tight heads will be in NZ it seems. Good club player. That’s about it.

Disappointed Cockbain was left out – it would have been worth that for wind up value alone. As it stands we have three Irish locks and two English.

Check out the ‘Jobs for the boys’ feedback on Planet Rugby Finbar – more priceless provocative stuff from nonces who don’t know rugby from their arses. Some very funny stuff though – mainly from rather upset Celts.

[Havak]

I just got my tickets for the semi-final by the way. Toulouse were sent 8000 by ERC ltd - Tigers are hoping many of those will be returned as we could sell our allocation twice over.

A quarter of the ground has been grabbed by ERC ltd for complimetary and corporate use.

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Originally posted by Havak

On the flip side I’m not all anglo-centric. I think Sidoli the Welsh lock did more than enough to travel. And I’d have Humphries over Hodgson!

I thought Cockbain was stiff, too. Grewcock's selection is a classic piece of Clive favouritism.

Hodgson has a nasty tendency to bottle it when things get tense – and not just in his kicking, his defence goes AWOL too.

Even when not choking, he's only average at best. He lacks initiative, guile and aggression.

They must select a specialist Ten – the ABs have had a year to convert their Centre-turned stand off

Team injuries have seen him moving between #10 and centre for the Crusaders this season. But he's a seriously gifted player.

It can be seen as nothing but a huge gamble – I still feel it will happen if he ‘proves his fitness’.

I have no doubt it will happen. For PR reasons if nothing else. I still think it will be a mistake.

Is loss of consciousness still three weeks mandatory lay off?

They're saying at least three weeks. They hope he'll be back for round 11 of S12. He was concussed against you last season. It had better not become a habit. The Reds' Elton Flatley was seriously concussed early in this S12 season, for about the fourth time, and he's still on the sidelines.

Sorry to hear that anyway – I like McCaw even though his is maturing into an angsty type of player.

I don't think his problem is angstiness as much as an increasing tendency to give away silly penalties.

Disappointed Cockbain was left out – it would have been worth that for wind up value alone. As it stands we have three Irish locks and two English.

Speaking of angsty, and locks, there's still concern about Keith Robinson. He played some of a club game and his back is still bothering him. The ABs will need him in the mix.

Check out the ‘Jobs for the boys’ feedback on Planet Rugby Finbar – more priceless provocative stuff from nonces who don’t know rugby from their arses. Some very funny stuff though – mainly from rather upset Celts.

Yes, some amusing stuff, but it's hard to disagree with the bottom-line sentiment - Clive has picked a number of English players, including retired players, purely on the basis that he thinks he can rely on them to do a job. He's revisiting 2003. As you predicted he would. And as we've noted, he will live or die by his choice. And, as you noted, if he dies - it won't be his fault!

[Havak]

Grewcock's selection is a classic piece of Clive favouritism.

Connelly, Robinson and Woodward have all praised Grewcock to the rafters at times. Like yourself I simply do not see it myself.

Even when not choking, he's only average at best.

They also didn’t play him when Sale came to us last weekend – and he is not injured as far as I know. The poor dear probably couldn’t handle the cauldron that is Welford Road (he has choked badly there before).

But he's a seriously gifted player.

He looks good from what I have seen – but his kicking is way behind the Mehrts, Wilko’s, Goode’s and Yachvilli’s of this world. It’s ahead of Hodgson – but that isn’t saying much.

I still think it will be a mistake.

To throw in a man who has not finished 80 minutes since November 2003? It could almost be the dictionary definition of ‘mistake’.

The Reds' Elton Flatley was seriously concussed early in this S12 season, for about the fourth time, and he's still on the sidelines.

Tell McCaw not to clash heads with Back then – I was deadly serious about the stone.

The more times you are concussed the greater the risk of suffering post-concussion syndrome. Not a positive thing for a rugby player.

I don't think his problem is angstiness as much as an increasing tendency to give away silly penalties.

aka Moody-itis?

He played some of a club game and his back is still bothering him. The ABs will need him in the mix.

They really do – Jack is a good player but I would have him behind three of the Lions locks. If the Lions do play O’Connell-Kay they have niggle and good technical skill in the combination – and Jack-Robinson seems the best foil to that. O’Connell really does strike one as a young Jonno – very hard but pretty fair. He won’t take a backward step however so Robinson’s style of getting under peoples skin is exactly right to disrupt him.

I hope to god Williams is not in the mix – I have seen enough of him now to not trust him on a rugby field.

Clive has picked a number of English players, including retired players, purely on the basis that he thinks he can rely on them to do a job

Everything you say is correct. I have to say I think he got it largely right bar half a dozen choices. The squad should never have been dominated by the Welsh – as I keep saying they aren’t that good. They came within minutes of losing at home to an England side is total disarray and benefited from capitulations by both the French and Irish – that isn’t a sign of a team that can beat ABs. They haven’t beaten ABS – any of them, home OR away. How the hell can they expect to travel to places like the house of pain and triumph for the first time?

I have to hope that freed from the shackles of turnipheads ‘wonderful’ strategies that the English players who do make the tests will show their true quality. Augmented by the best of the Celts it could be a very good side – everything really depends which AB side shows up I suppose, the one from France last year or the one that blew the tri-nations?

One match up will be tasty – Umaga-BO’D.

[Havak]

Are the All Blacks bringing their first XV this autumn - they have just confirmed an extra tour date with the Welsh on 5th November and there is a lot of taff optimism. Ill founded optimism in my opinion.

[child of Thor]

well its just a bl**dy breath of fresh air imho

I was beginging to think i'd not live to see the words 'welsh rugby' and 'optimism' used in a complimentary sense again.
I'd have to live with and cherish my memmory of shaking Gareth Edwards hand in swansea all those years ago!

But yes we need to prove ourselves on the world stage again - rugby is to wales as it is to the kiwi's, so we should atleast aim to be as good

well lets see how this 'new' team handle optimism mixed with second choice all blacks

[I'm just happy we beat england ]

[Havak]

Beat us at Twickenham next year and you can officially make that 'ecstatic'

I think it unlikely to be honest - unless we still have the same clue-bereft coach then.

You have every right to be happy on the grounds you describe. Wales scored a great and well deserved Slam in the 6N - but the danger is that some people (not yourself) seem to be getting very carried away by that fact? The 6N Slam has to be followed by a strong autumn I feel or it could all be for nought come the next 6N.

And Edwards - what a player he was. I wish I had seen him 'live'.

If the ABs bring a full strength touring side all the home nations will struggle I feel - but instead of taking Wales last as they wanted they are now taking them first. Ironically I think that favours the ABs myself - but time will tell on that one of course.

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Originally posted by Havak
He looks good from what I have seen – but his kicking is way behind the Mehrts, Wilko’s, Goode’s and Yachvilli’s of this world. It’s ahead of Hodgson – but that isn’t saying much.

He's not way behind. He's become a little inconsistent lately but his technique is very sound. He'll get there.

aka Moody-itis?

If Moody-itis means blatantly infringeing around the ruck, yes.

I hope to god Williams is not in the mix – I have seen enough of him now to not trust him on a rugby field.

I think he got six weeks for tap dancing on McCaw's head. I'm not sure when it expires.

Everything you say is correct. I have to say I think he got it largely right bar half a dozen choices.

Balshaw tops my list, followed by Grewcock and Back (for reasons already canvassed).

The squad should never have been dominated by the Welsh – as I keep saying they aren’t that good. They came within minutes of losing at home to an England side is total disarray and benefited from capitulations by both the French and Irish

True re England. Unfair, I think, re Ireland and, particularly, France. Ireland were crap and the Welsh couldn't have done any more, except perhaps win by more, but the win was all that mattered. They stepped up from the England match, in which England were no better than Ireland. The comeback against France was the real revelation, I think. Anyway, no one except a rabid Taffy would have expected a squad full of Taffys. I think the Taffy core has been selected, which is appropriate. One or other of the locks probably deserved a spot in front of a lump like Grewcock.

everything really depends which AB side shows up I suppose, the one from France last year or the one that blew the tri-nations?

As is always the case. I read somewhere that G. Henry would be abandoning the silly ultra-flat backline approach. Good thing too.

One match up will be tasty – Umaga-BO’D.

It will be terrific. Umaga has been doing some wonderful things in S12 this year, particularly in defence.

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Originally posted by child of Thor
I'd have to live with and cherish my memmory of shaking Gareth Edwards hand in swansea all those years ago!

Presumably you still haven't washed that hand?