Rugby - Hands Off, Wattle!

[spartak]

I think its really hard to get a good sense of English strength at the mo because of the serious number of walking (and/or hobbling) wounded. What we did find out this tournement is that the strength in depth isn't as strong or as deep as we thought.

How that ****er worsely gets a game I have absolutely no idea. Once we get Wilco and Hill back we will have a better idea of how we stand these days. A back row of Hill, Correy and Moodey isn't a totally depressing idea and given that the current centres are at best 4th or 5th choice doesn't exactly suggest that a full strength side wouldn't perform well.

I'm mystified by Robinson as a coach and Robinson the full back had a wrteched series and I wonder whether Balshaw might be a better long term choice with billy wizz relegated to the bench.

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I agree. The injury toll makes it hard to gauge the big picture. I was looking at what's currently on offer. Wilkinson would obviously solve a big weakness - Hodgson isn't commanding or inventive enough - but, sadly, who knows what Wilkinson's long-term future is? And how old is Richard Hill these days? 33? He's a class above the incumbent, but I can't imagine him lining up in 2007.

I also refuse to believe that Barkley is the best #12 on offer. He seems to be there for his kicking alone. Okay, it's nice to have a #12 who can kick. The Wallabies have played Flatley and Giteau at #12 for that reason, but they're also immensely creative contributors in their own right. Coach Robinson has obviously earmarked Noon for the long haul. He's young, he appears - to me - competent. He scored a hat trick on Saturday, at least one of which would have been stopped 25 metres from the line by half-competent defence. Our Chris Latham scored five tries against Namibia. Everything's relative. Anyway, my theory remains that an aggressive, inventive midfield - and there are a few of them around - will snuff out the incumbent England lot.

You're mystified by coach Robinson? Join the club. He seems to have a cast-iron policy of replacing Ellis with Dawson with about 15 minutes to go. Ellis isn't yet reaching great heights on the field, but surely he's the future. Why else is he starting? Why isn't he being given as much game time as possible? Why replace him with someone close to retirement in a game that is well and truly won?

Coach Robinson - not that I know him - seems to be a stolid, stubborn individual lacking in original thought. And it seems to me that the team is suffering his imprint.

[spartak]

Yeah - that sounds about right!

[Havak]

Of course, that was just a bait for Havak to try and find a spurious reason why someone who is neither English nor Scot would want to look at the game

It’s the oldest fixture in the world game and means an awful lot to both the English and the Scots.

Plus it was played between two teams who have beaten tri-nations opposition this century. I can’t even remember the last time Wales beat tri-nations opposition.

Okay lets be fair here – Wales did a great job on Ireland and thoroughly deserved the Slam this year. And it hurts saying that. Like you wouldn’t believe. Not that this alters the fact I am in a living nightmare now where Wales have won the slam and gone above England in the world rankings. I guess that shows how silly the rankings really are (Finbar take a bow) given my previous point that Wales have done so without ever beating a tri-nations side.

Still Wales are up there now to be shot at – and they many find being the side everyone wants to beat next year will bring it’s own problems.

To see Ruddock talking of ten Welsh starters for the Lions is ludicrous – Clive is far too smart for that. He wants to beat NZ not go down in a glorious blaze of tiny wingers being trampled by North Aucklanders.

I know the Welsh players I would take – Sidoli, Cockbain (this Aussie-Taff will p*** the Kiwis off at least), Davies, Williams, Owen, Peel, Jones and Thomas (as mid week skipper not a test player) but by no means all of them are test starters – Owen will lose out to Corry for starters and Sidoli to O’Connell or Kay. Peel and Jones look like test starters unless Wilko is fit – and Williams has a good chance given the lack of genuine openside competition. Williams certainly bossed O’Connor this weekend.

But golden boots? Doesn’t do enough in a game for me. I think Tindall will keep him on the bench and partner BO’D.

Wales deserved the win. They're a very promising rugby team.

I would say more a team with some very promising individuals. They are a fairly good side surrounded by teams out of form. If you don’t believe me watch the autumn games when they face the SH tourists. Wales will not have arrived for me until they take a big SH scalp. Beating a dire (and Corryless) England side by one point did not make them a great team. Though the win against France hinted more strongly that they could be one in time.

Shanklin works harder and will probably, through persistence, end up more productive and effective.

And ironically was the better player again Saturday – but has no chance whatsoever of a Lions start as he plays at outside centre where BO’D is a shoe in.

That young black flanker who was named man of the match looks the goods, too.

A super player – the sudden wealth of French centres and loose forwards is a bit worrying.

I assume because, with the competition already decided, the telecasters didn't think it was important enough.

That’s like saying a Bledisloe deciding game does not matter. The Calcutta cup matters – it is all we have to keep the replica Webb Ellis company now.

England's injury situation wasn't looking too good.

TIGERS injury situation was not looking too good you mean?

Rowntree picked up a thigh injury before kick off (!), Kay did his ankle and Moody hurt his hip! Added to that Smith got hammered on the head at a ruck late on. No official word on severity but Kay reportedly badly damaged his ligaments meaning he probably will not make the Leinster game on 2nd April.

I thought we played some very good rugby in patches in the early games and we've capped it off today

aka “Ships, what ships?”

people are already talking of Wales winning the next Rugby World Cup here...

And on that day Satan will go to work in a snow plough!!!

But for now enjoy – a thoroughly deserved Slam by the taffs!!

Coach Robinson - not that I know him - seems to be a stolid, stubborn individual lacking in original thought. And it seems to me that the team is suffering his imprint.

Yes – that pretty much sums him (and them) up.

But with Wells heading the Academy from June there is hope for a positive change soon.

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Originally posted by Havak
I know the Welsh players I would take – Sidoli, Cockbain (this Aussie-Taff will p*** the Kiwis off at least), Davies, Williams, Owen, Peel, Jones and Thomas (as mid week skipper not a test player) but by no means all of them are test starters – Owen will lose out to Corry for starters and Sidoli to O’Connell or Kay. Peel and Jones look like test starters unless Wilko is fit – and Williams has a good chance given the lack of genuine openside competition. Williams certainly bossed O’Connor this weekend.

But golden boots? Doesn’t do enough in a game for me. I think Tindall will keep him on the bench and partner BO’D.

I've been surprised by Cockbain's improvement. He was only a trier back in the World Cup. I suppose that's confidence for you.

Just out of interest, pick me your Lions 22.

I would say more a team with some very promising individuals. They are a fairly good side surrounded by teams out of form. If you don’t believe me watch the autumn games when they face the SH tourists. Wales will not have arrived for me until they take a big SH scalp. Beating a dire (and Corryless) England side by one point did not make them a great team. Though the win against France hinted more strongly that they could be one in time.

No one (apart from the Welsh, and they can be forgiven the hysteria) is calling them a great team. I still call them a very promising team. Yes, the effort against France revealed guts, amongst other things, and even if they only beat England by a point, they still came back to win. And, yes, they won in a pretty ordinary year. And, regardless of the end result, I think the French are a better team. I wonder whether we play the Welsh later in the year.

TIGERS injury situation was not looking too good you mean?

So you must have been relieved to see Harry Ellis yet again replaced by Dawson at the scheduled, pre-ordained, utterly pointless 60 (or thereabouts) minute mark?

But with Wells heading the Academy from June there is hope for a positive change soon.

Not before November. Cross your fingers for a couple of beltings from the SH teams.

[Havak]

I can;t - it would run contrary to all my natural instincts.

I'm working on the other bits (and my Lions squad may surprise you) but can confirm for you that your Spring tour sees you face England, Ireland and Wales on consecutive weekends. Should be properly warmed up for the taffs.

[Havak]

Lions XXII

1 Jenkins (Wales)
2 Byrne (Ireland)
3 Stevens/White (England)
4 O’Connell (Ireland)
5 Kay (England)
6 Moody (England)
7 Williams (Wales)
8 Corry (England)
9 Peel (Wales)
10 Jones (Wales)
11 S. Lamont (Scotland)
12 Tindall (England)
13 O’Driscoll (Ireland)
14 Lewsey (England)
15 Murphy (Ireland)
16 Davies (Wales)
17 Rowntree (England)
18 Sidoli (Wales)
19 Taylor/White (Scotland)
20 Noon/Smith (England)
21 Cueto/Shane Williams (England/Wales)
22 Robinson/Morgan (England/Wales)

Less Irish than I would have picked eight weeks ago – far more Welsh. But the core has to be English still for me. Only one Scottish starter.

Keep in mind reviewing it that Clive will be obliged to field at least one player from every country in the starting XV – a political reality forced on him. So whilst I really don’t personally think that Shane Williams is suited to face NZ - on form he has to make the 22 I think. Lamont is bigger and stronger – plus I know him from club days so that and the fact there has to be a Scot in the XV sealed it.

And my Lions selection is far more realistic than Planet Rugby's pathetic team of the tournament (as written by their resident Aussie journo?)

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Originally posted by Havak
I can;t - it would run contrary to all my natural instincts.

I'm working on the other bits (and my Lions squad may surprise you) but can confirm for you that your Spring tour sees you face England, Ireland and Wales on consecutive weekends. Should be properly warmed up for the taffs.

I think we can cope with them. Suffocate them in the same way the All Blacks can be suffocated. But I'm dying to see their little winger tackling Tuquiri.

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Originally posted by Havak
And my Lions selection is far more realistic than Planet Rugby's pathetic team of the tournament (as written by their resident Aussie journo?)

Yes, PR's team is an eccentric selection, all right. You picked Poms? What a surprise. He's taking 44, isn't he? As one big pool? Or separate, designated mid-week and Test pools? Noon won't get a look in, Cueto could. I think he has improved. He has tried hard and gone looking for the ball, but there are plenty of wingers of about equal standard available. Interesting point about Shane Williams' size, but I think Clive would start him. Lamont might be bigger and stronger but he doesn't have the potency. I'd replace him with White. Or Taylor. I liked Taylor the more I saw of him. Where can he play? I don't think Kay has done enough to start. Or Moody, really. Tindall's an even bigger stretch, I suspect, given his time off. But, I suppose it depends how much insurance Clive wants.

Regardless, the team certainly doesn't offer the quality of the mob who came out here.

[Havak]

No it is not the quality of the last Lions squad – how could it be? The English players I picked are mainly proven winners who have turned over SH sides. It wasn’t blind prejudice, just red rose coloured

Yes the squad is 44. Though Clive has stated all 44 are available for test selection – no “Dai’s driftwood” divisions this time. And I think you will be surprised how many English travel despite the 6N. God forbid he tries to rely on the Welsh – he could kill their confidence ahead of the autumn tests for starters.

Kay has been by far the best lock for England this tournament and will be there or there abouts for the test sides. Moody will start if fit – there is simply no one else as potent at the restart and that is a phase of play where we need to attack NZ.

He may take Shanklin instead of Noon or Smith. But to reiterate ad nauseum this Welsh side is not that good that it should dominate Lions selection. We want to beat NZ not feed them sacrificial lambs.

Replace Lamont with White or Taylor? You mean to get a Scot in the side given they are loose forwards and him a winger. They have a chance certainly but it’s hard to see beyond Williams-Corry-Moody to be honest.

Tindall is a gamble I guess – but then so is Henson. How will the pretty boy react the first time Umaga cuts him up rough? There is something deeply disturbing about a rugby player who uses bottled tan and shaves his leg – truly a ‘girlie’ that one.

*edit* Check out Zinzan's Lions picks - I think he is carrying a torch for Dayglo.

Bizarre talk of Henson as Fly half if Greenwood is fit too!

*another edit*

I see Ali Williams disciplinary record has taken another turn for the worse? Interesting that he can stand on Josh Lewsey and just get a finger wagging but as soon as he steps on someone needed for the ABs (McCaw) the book is thrown at him? Bitter Pom? You bet!

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Originally posted by Havak
No it is not the quality of the last Lions squad – how could it be? The English players I picked are mainly proven winners who have turned over SH sides. It wasn’t blind prejudice, just red rose coloured

I knew why you picked them. They've been there. Fair enough. Clive might go the same way.

He may take Shanklin instead of Noon or Smith. But to reiterate ad nauseum this Welsh side is not that good that it should dominate Lions selection. We want to beat NZ not feed them sacrificial lambs.

No one here - apart from MOBIUS, and he was p*ssed - thinks Wales is a great team. I think the French are better. But I'd take Shanklin a mile in front of Noon. And Smith, for reasons we've canvassed many times, remains untested, so I'd have to put Shanklin in front of him too. I like Shanklin. He's a goer.

Replace Lamont with White or Taylor? You mean to get a Scot in the side given they are loose forwards and him a winger. They have a chance certainly but it’s hard to see beyond Williams-Corry-Moody to be honest.

Yes, to get a Scot in the side. Because I think Shane Williams will start. Unless, of course, Lamont takes the other wing. Which I wouldn't like to see. The only other Scot candidate would be the full back and he would leak tries wholesale. If Noon can wander past him, Lord knows what the ABs will do to him.

*edit* Check out Zinzan's Lions picks - I think he is carrying a torch for Dayglo.

Bizarre talk of Henson as Fly half if Greenwood is fit too!

Quite bizarre. As per usual. He also picks the Scotland full back!

I see Ali Williams disciplinary record has taken another turn for the worse? Interesting that he can stand on Josh Lewsey and just get a finger wagging but as soon as he steps on someone needed for the ABs (McCaw) the book is thrown at him? Bitter Pom? You bet!

I only saw the end of that match. I'll have to check out the report.

EDIT. Instead, I found a report that Deano is off to Harlequins, leaving a plethora of unhappiness behind in France.

[Havak]

Yes poor Deano. He apparently suggested his players should work beyond 35 hours per week and nearly provoked a general strike in France at the mere thought of it.

Quins is a strange choice for Dean – though it does place him handily to boot Robinson out the door at Twickers (the Stoop is literally just over the road from HQ). It also means we don’t really have to worry about a happy return to Welford Road for him – we do pretty well against Quins at home.

I am really interested to see what Clive does with the squad – I suspect the temptation to take ‘his boys’ will be immense outside of the other factors we have mooted.

I like Shanklin. He's a goer

He’s a trier – and in the form of his life. He does have a tendency to blow hot and cold though. If he goes AWOL in a Lions test I will personally kick his ****.

If Noon can wander past him, Lord knows what the ABs will do to him.

Walk over him. Patterson once thought he was a fly half, then became a wing and from there moved to fullback. Wing is the only position he seems at all suited for – and they are expected to work much harder physically these days than I think he is suited to.

I suspect you are right – Shane Williams will start. I fear the worst from it – he looks like a toy player alongside those big AB wings.

Quite bizarre. As per usual. He also picks the Scotland full back!

And both Irish second rows – not sure O’Kelly has done enough for that?

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The locks, like a few other positions, are pretty much a raffle as far as I can see. There are few absolute standouts screaming "pick me!".

If Clive does start S. Williams, there will need to be some very powerful defenders able to help him out.

[Havak]

That is what worries me - who would that be?

*edit* On reflection I think that would require either Lewsey or Thomas - both renowned tacklers - to get the fullback berth.

But should we enter battle with the ABs playing a winger with known defensive weaknesses?

Incidentally is the AB lock Robinson fit and well? I think the worst thing for NZ would be having to play Ali Williams as it would risk them having 14 men for large parts of the test matches.

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He has missed the early S12 matches recovering from surgery. He's training, apparently, and due back early next month.