Rugby - Hands Off, Wattle!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by ravagon



We're going to need more synonyms!

Has a ref ever referred to them as "yellow".?

[Havak]

'Yellow' has indeed been used by referees when instructing the Aussies.

But lets not pick on Finbar - slip a Green in there and he will think we are aiming at the Boks or Ireland (and our secret will be we are really aiming at Green as in 'Green and Gold').

When we finally get to white we will actually be referring to the colour of the flag England has held up in the 6N so far.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
But lets not pick on Finbar -

Bring it on! Remember I've dealt with television producers for more than twenty five years! Compared to them, you're as rugged as a James Simpson-Daniel tackle!

slip a Green in there and he will think we are aiming at the Boks or Ireland

So what happens when we get to Ireland and the Boks? They're both called green by the refs. And Italy and les grenouilles play in blue. We might have to investigate alternative thread title strips.

When we finally get to white we will actually be referring to the colour of the flag England has held up in the 6N so far.

By the time we get to white, if this coach remains incumbent, the English XXII will be an extinct species anyway.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Has a ref ever referred to them as "yellow".?

No, just as twice WRC winners with no history of choking in important matches.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

I don't see how the NZ Maori match is relevant. I haven't known a recent NZ Maori team to contain any players who were, at the time, All Blacks. If anything, NZ Maori is, amonst other things, a trial for young potential ABs. Carlos played for NZ Maori a couple of years ago prior to his return to the All Blacks.

I don't exactly recall the exact makeup of the last few NZ Maori sides but in recent years they may've been playing alongside concurrent AB matches, hence a lack of overlap in players. Historically NZ Maori sides have often consisted of basically the current AB squad minus the odd player or three who may've been just a little too Caucasian to qualify.

I think the game on the 6th is probably NZ Maori vs Fiji. The AB's vs Fiji is supposed to conflict with NZ Maori vs Lions on the 11th, hence their part in the selection ruling.
Some of the early games also conflict with AB trials iirc.

I've never heard of provincial teams having first call on players in front of the national team.

Neither have I quite frankly. This is a first. Graham H. was apparently in agreement too which is even more mystifying.

[finbar]

Yes, I wrote it down wrongly. The test against Fiji is on the 10th, the day before the NZ Maori -v- Lions. Which just means there won't be any ABs in the NZ Maori team.

Whatever this odd dictum might be, it does sound like some sort of policy - and it will probably remain theoretical - to guard against what happens on, for example, cricket tours. Touring teams play matches against state (or country) teams, and the state (or county) teams often take the opportunity to rest their key players, trotting out their up-and-comers. Thus the contests become fairly meaningless.

[finbar]

The SH -v- NH match was a lot of fun - except, of course, for Ben Cohen; one of the Scots who finished up wrapped in ice; and the little Italian winger who finished up on the end of a couple of Brian Lima specials. Ultimately, I'm not sure that it proved much apart from the obvious fact that the SH were better equipped for this sort of match than the NH. Quicker ball, surer handling, and much more clinical. Chris Latham was in his element. It was interesting to see, on occasions, some decent competition with a bit of rucking. And Phil Waugh calling the French replacement, Soulette, "a fat c*nt"!

But I was most interested to see some of the English players. Ollie Smith showed some touches of class when the ball got to him. Quick, strong, good hands, and a thinker. I doubt that he'd try the toe-through inside in his own 22 in a match that counted. I'd have liked to have seen him with the sort of service that Gregan was giving the SH midfield. Regardless of the context of the match, he still showed more class than the incumbent England centres combined. And Titterall showed more class than the incumbent England hooker - which is to say, he was mobile, he didn't cough up the ball at every opportunity, and his throws hit the mark more than they missed. Even The Nose, obviously motivated by the dream of a Lions jersey, worked his backside off, into everything at every opportunity. The problem is, the context of the match makes it difficult to draw serious conclusions.

And Plank has announced he's off to Ulster at the end of our season. Or even earlier, as he qualifies for an early release if he requests it.

[Havak]

Compared to them, you're as rugged as a James Simpson-Daniel tackle!

At least you didn’t say Mathew Tait – so there is some hope for me.

James S-D scored a superb try in Glaws defeat by Bath yesterday – the boy is a talent, he just looks like he needs several years of good square meals.

No, just as twice WRC winners with no history of choking in important matches.

Largely true – but I saw them choke (on their own tears) in the QF in 1995.

Historically NZ Maori sides have often consisted of basically the current AB squad minus the odd player or three who may've been just a little too Caucasian to qualify.

I can’t quite put my finger on why but this really tickled my sense of humour.

Graham H. was apparently in agreement too which is even more mystifying.

Well Graham has been fooling you all thus far – but eventually a chump shows his true colours.

the little Italian winger who finished up on the end of a couple of Brian Lima specials

But I gained a lot of respect for young Bergamasco for the way he kept on putting himself in harms way after these – and the try seemed well deserved for the lad.

I'm not sure that it proved much apart from the obvious fact that the SH were better equipped for this sort of match than the NH

The better side won. The SH looked a stronger side on paper and so it proved – the back line was far more potent. Certain Irish provinces will have looked at Mr Latham and been furious that he does not honour contracts? I am sure it is obvious to you that the NH were only outclassed because there were only four Englishmen involved?

I did enjoy seeing the combination of Gregan and Mehrtens – but the comparison to the second and third string welsh scrummies, the second string Irish stand off and then a former welsh centre stepping in at ten perhaps explains why one back line got better service?

And Phil Waugh calling the French replacement, Soulette, "a fat c*nt"!

I saw an exchange of words – hadn’t realised it was these words!

I doubt that he'd try the toe-through inside in his own 22 in a match that counted.

That most of all showed that Ollie was trying too hard at times – but the lad is certainly prepared to back himself. At times his hands were actually too good for his team mates too. But he certainly is a talent – I do hope the England coach was watching!

If Smith is not selected for Italy something is badly wrong – with Cohen getting injured in the charity game it leaves the door wide open.

And Titterall showed more class than the incumbent England hooker

I rate the lad – he is small for a modern hooker (about 5’9”) but he puts himself about - his work rate always impresses me. Obviously I have to back my own club man Chuter but Titters is second in the running for me.

I have to say I was very surprised by Dayglo – he played quite well. Methinks he had one eye on Sir Clive and the Lions. At the moment I would happily accommodate both Dayglo and Cozza in the Lions side – now all I need to do is convince Jonno to come out of retirement…

And Plank has announced he's off to Ulster at the end of our season. Or even earlier, as he qualifies for an early release if he requests it.

wtf? Ulster? That’s like moving from Waratahs to Manly beach!! Pointless!!

Check out the BBC report with Jonno’s comments on Andy Farrell Finbar – it is typical pragmatic Jonno stuff. Most of the big English clubs are shying away from the gamble Farrell represents - and the RFU are getting a bit nervous.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
James S-D scored a superb try in Glaws defeat by Bath yesterday – the boy is a talent, he just looks like he needs several years of good square meals.

And several years of tackling lessons.

But I gained a lot of respect for young Bergamasco for the way he kept on putting himself in harms way after these – and the try seemed well deserved for the lad.

Yes, he did well. He played well against Scotland, too, when he saw the ball, which wasn't often.

Certain Irish provinces will have looked at Mr Latham and been furious that he does not honour contracts?

Yes, I made the point the other day that Alan Gaffney - ex-Munster - will be coaching him with the Wallabies. Ironically, last season, when he reneged on his contract, was the season that finally saw him cement his place at top level. Matt Rogers' injury gave him the opportunity, but he grabbed it, and developed some confidence. He was a brilliant S12 player considered suspect at top level because he was a risk taker and clanger-prone. Now, with confidence, he's calculating his risks better, defending very strongly, but also a very dangerous attacking force. He's a 20% better player than he was when he reneged on Munster.

I am sure it is obvious to you that the NH were only outclassed because there were only four Englishmen involved?

Yep. Toss in the Beer Gut, Worsley, Barkley, Noon, Hodgson and the incumbent England coach and the SH could have run up a cricket score.

I did enjoy seeing the combination of Gregan and Mehrtens – but the comparison to the second and third string welsh scrummies, the second string Irish stand off and then a former welsh centre stepping in at ten perhaps explains why one back line got better service?

Precisely. It's also the best game I've seen Brian Lima play in terms of skill and nouse. He ran some wonderful angles.

I saw an exchange of words – hadn’t realised it was these words!

The words could be heard quite clearly via one of the sideline mikes. I rewound the tape just to be sure I heard what I thought I heard. Presumably la grenouille got the point.

If Smith is not selected for Italy something is badly wrong – with Cohen getting injured in the charity game it leaves the door wide open.

I would agree. Is he a 12 or 13?

I have to say I was very surprised by Dayglo – he played quite well. Methinks he had one eye on Sir Clive and the Lions. At the moment I would happily accommodate both Dayglo and Cozza in the Lions side – now all I need to do is convince Jonno to come out of retirement…

Nose was obviously out to impress Clive. He was into everything at a furious rate. I thought Cohen tried very hard too. He was into everything. More than Cueto ever is. Obviously trying to impress the England coach. Pity about the jaw.

wtf? Ulster? That’s like moving from Waratahs to Manly beach!! Pointless!!

It came out of the blue. There was talk of it being either Perth or the Waratahs. It has to be superannuation. Or he might have had a falling out with someone here. He's an incumbent Wallaby lock and hardly over the hill. OTOH, there are a couple of very promising young locks - Chisolm at the Brumbies, and a chap called McMeneman in his first season with the Reds - so maybe he was getting in first.

Check out the BBC report with Jonno’s comments on Andy Farrell Finbar – it is typical pragmatic Jonno stuff. Most of the big English clubs are shying away from the gamble Farrell represents - and the RFU are getting a bit nervous.

Pragmatic? He's tipping the biggest bucket of sh*t of all time on the idea. And rightly so. The more I read about Farrell, the more I can't believe the fuss. He's almost 30, he has a bung knee, and no - or next to no - rugby background. It's not dissimilar to the Waratahs' pursuit of Andrew Johns as a fly half last year. Johns is said to be the best L***** player in the world, a year older than Farrell, and also with a dodgy knee. The Waratahs resorted to private sponsorship to buy him but forces within the ARU ultimately kyboshed it. But the fundamental difference was that it was a Waratahs-driven initiative. He was to be a S12 purchase. Anything beyond that - like the Wallabies - was by the by. I didn't care if the Waratahs bought him. But I wouldn't have wanted Eddie buying him for the Wallabies. (In fact, apparently, Eddie advised the ARU against chipping in to help buy Johns. Which p*ssed the Waratahs off mightily)

I'd be very nervous for a whole number of reasons if I were the RFU.

[Havak]

And several years of tackling lessons.

I’m not sure he will ever have stopping power in the tackle unless he bulks up.

He played well against Scotland, too, when he saw the ball, which wasn't often.

The Italian midfield is pretty woeful isn’t it?

He's a 20% better player than he was when he reneged on Munster.

Along with Lima some of his running lines on Saturday were inspired.

I’d still like to be a fly on the wall when he and Gaffney first talk in the Wallabies camp.

Presumably la grenouille got the point.

I suspect it is a phrase that needs no overt translation. Nice to see Phil was getting in to the spirit of the game though eh?

I would agree. Is he a 12 or 13?

A 13 really – it is where his pace pays off to best effect. He has played 12 occasionally. Noon could move to inside for him (Noon is a 12 at club level) – we certainly should not need a kicking 12 (Barkeley) against Italy.

It has to be superannuation. Or he might have had a falling out with someone here.

It is also being touted that he fancied a tilt in the European cup. I don’t buy that as Ulster are not the place to go if that is a burning ambition.

I'd be very nervous for a whole number of reasons if I were the RFU.

By very publicly pushing for him – and then having club after club pass on the chance the RFU comes out of it looking rather silly. Never ones to back down they will find a deal for him somewhere. His knee will probably go again the first time he plays.

[Havak]

I simply cannot get into Robinson's head. One change - Balshaw in for Jason R. Thommo must be the luckiest man in world rugby to have played the way he has and still be picked.

England: I Balshaw (Leeds); M Cueto (Sale Sharks), J Noon (Newcastle), O Barkley (Bath), J Lewsey (Wasps); C Hodgson (Sale Sharks), H Ellis (Leicester); G Rowntree (Leicester), S Thompson (Northampton), M Stevens (Bath); D Grewcock (Bath), B Kay (Leicester); J Worsley (Wasps), L Moody (Leicester), M Corry (Leicester, capt).

Replacements: A Titterrell (Sale Sharks), D Bell (Bath), S Borthwick (Bath), A Hazell (Gloucester), M Dawson (Wasps), A Goode (Leicester), O Smith (Leicester).

[spartak]

Whats the verdict of Balshaw. I haven't seen him for a while but he had definately "gone" in the head last time I saw him in a white shirt. Does he have his confidence back?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
The Italian midfield is pretty woeful isn’t it?

They're woeful outside of the forwards - who aren't all that skilled, but strong - and the little winger.

A 13 really – it is where his pace pays off to best effect. He has played 12 occasionally. Noon could move to inside for him (Noon is a 12 at club level) – we certainly should not need a kicking 12 (Barkeley) against Italy.

If you've got the right people in the right places, a kicking #12 shouldn't be a priority anyway.

It is also being touted that he fancied a tilt in the European cup. I don’t buy that as Ulster are not the place to go if that is a burning ambition.

The truth is coming out. He'd been in protracted negotiations with the ARU. Ulster made him an offer with a deadline for a decision. The ARU were told about the offer and that Ulster had stipulated a deadline. The ARU ignored the Ulster deadline, telling him they would continue negotiations when he came back from the Waratahs' SA tour. Deadline arrived, Plank took the Ulster offer. The ARU is expressing great surprise and Eddie is quite p*ssed off about it. It seems clear that the ARU didn't take the Ulster offer seriously, thinking it was nothing more than a lever to up the fiscal ante. They were wrong. The Waratahs are incredibly p*ssed off. There weren't any other offers, which probably only means that no other NH clubs thought he was genuinely available. If anyone had thought he was genuinely available, I'm sure there would have been offers. But, for whatever reason, he's obviously happy to go to Ulster. Otherwise his management would have let the entire NH know that he was genuinely available. Good old Plank, perverse to the end.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I simply cannot get into Robinson's head. One change - Balshaw in for Jason R. Thommo must be the luckiest man in world rugby to have played the way he has and still be picked.

Amazing. He also seems determined to give the centre pairing an extended opportunity. So what happens when Tindall is fit again? Where does that leave Smith?

EDIT. And the England coach gets off with a smack on the wrist with a feather for his bollocking of Kaplan.

[Havak]

Balshaw has been struggling for game time for two years with a series of injuries. He is finally putting a string of rugby together and showing some semblance of form but he is still a long way shy of the potential he showed in 2001.

As a fullback he has never convinced me defensively anyway – I am sure Italy will be looking to put a few high balls on him early doors.

They're woeful outside of the forwards - who aren't all that skilled, but strong - and the little winger.

In other words there really would be no hiding place should England lose to them.

On which note the coach has been given the popular nickname ‘Turniphead’ which seems in part due to a physical characteristic and part in homage to a former England soccer coach who was also of suspect intellectual capacity.

If you've got the right people in the right places, a kicking #12 shouldn't be a priority anyway.

Right people in the right places? No, sorry, that doesn’t sound like the England I’ve watched recently.

Good old Plank, perverse to the end.

As you say. Ulster really is a bizarre choice – they are third amongst the Irish provinces. Someone should have told him that when they won the Cup in 1999 the English clubs were all boycotting the tournament and French clubs knocked out Munster and Leinster for them. Poor old Plank.

So what happens when Tindall is fit again? Where does that leave Smith?

On the Lions tour covering BO’D I suspect.

Tindall will come straight back in and Turniphead will keep playing Noon outside him – because by god he must be right about Noon and will keep trying until it is proved so. I don’t claim that Smith is yet anywhere near the player Umaga is – but I know between Smith and Noon which one I think is a better counter to Tana in the autumn as he will simply eat Noon alive.

In other news Cullen’s bad luck at Munster continues apace – torn shoulder ligaments now ruling him out for six months.

And yes Robinson got the lightest of smacks on the wrist for his heavy public criticism of Kaplan. Over to the IRB I think?