The democratic revolution marches on...

[Ramo]

Egypt has announced they will end to 24 year old "state of emergency" which gave Mubarrak dictatorial powers plus it will now be legal for other candidates to run for office

Nope, he didn't say anything about ending the emergency laws. He did say there will be multiple people on the ballot for President, but no other office. It seems likely that Mubarak will screen the opposition. All in all, nominal.

the Palestinian people actually held their first competitive election which wasn't rigged by Yasser Arafat's cronies

Keep in mind that that's mostly because a certain person died. Probably has nothing to do with Iraq.

Also, Hamas boycotted the national elections, but didn't in the elections for Gaza. And they won big there.

Saudi Arabia held its first elections ever (though only for city level officials)

Only for half of the city-councils. And similarly, Islamists won big.

There's a basic problem, in that we've been backing these nasty dictators in destroying the left. And it pretty much is destroyed. The opposition to these dictatorships nowadays are almost invariably Islamists. In Egypt, for instance, the grand-daddies of Islamism, the Muslim Brotherhood, will be the likely alternative to Mubarak. And we've done absolutely nothing to repair that sad state of affairs. In Iraq (see our trade union policy) and elsewhere.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by PLATO

You know, some people believe that freeedom is worth dying for...I know our forefathers did.

Which is why they had slaves to wait on them hand and foot.

[Dinner]

My personal take is that Iraq had next to nothijng to do with it but pressure from Bush and Blair has been the controlling factor. If Syrian troops can be pushed out of Lebonon before the summer's election then it is likely a moderate government will take power there and it will seek to sign a peace treaty with Israel. That will leave Syria as the only one of Israeli's neighbors still officially at war with them. I truly believe that would be a solid step forward towards ending the Arab-Israeli conflict just because it would create a government which will crack down on terror organizations instead of the current Syrian backed government which vigorously supports terrorist groups.

Of course the big issue continues to be Al Qaeda and Osama bin Ladin both of which have seen their popularity sky rocket in the muslim world since the invasion of Iraq. I'm not sure that moderate democratic reforms will be able to over come the huge gaff Bush made in Iraq.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
The idea of testing the waters for democratic reform in Saudi Arabia preceded the invasion of Iraq. You might as well credit Osama Bin Laden. The Saudi government is genuinely afraid of al-Quaida, andf are hoping to steal some of Osama's wind by pernitting some democratic reforms. The US government has also been advocating democratic reform for quite some time also. The Saudi's are going about it very cautiously though as they don't want to wind up like the Shah of Iran.

The recent progress in Palestine I think you can attribute to the passing of Yassir Arafat. Everything just seemed to begin to sanp in place after his ffuneral didn't it? Evidently he's done more for the Palestinian psople in death than in life.

No doubt, Strangelove, the US has long advocated "human rights." What is new about the Bush doctrine is that we see the quest for democracy as the only hope for permanent peace. That is a distinction with a difference.

[Ned]

Oerdin, you might also add Georgia and the Ukraine to Bush's victory list. Bush stood strong for democracy in both places at a time when the forces of democracy needed support.

[Dinner]

Re: The democratic revolution marches on...

Originally posted by DanS
If you want to include Iraq as a democratic revolution, then that costs some $50 billion + per annum.

You are off by about $100 billion.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
Overturning a fixed election. What's your definition of a democratic revolution?

Promoting a democratic election. My definition is not replacing an undemocratic corrupt hack by another one.

[Dinner]

I don't think I would credit Bush for much in the Ukraine since it was the Ukrainians who did all the heavy lifting and with the EU being far more vocal then the US. US and EU pressure (including the EU threatening sanctions which Bush didn't do) did help in Georgia though.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
My personal take is that Iraq had next to nothijng to do with it but pressure from Bush and Blair has been the controlling factor.

And that's actually the right way to do things. I continue not to believe the whole "democracy at gunpoint" meme, and I expect Iraq to need continuous pressure and support so that its democracy becomes sustainable, just like the undemocratic institutions of the other ME countries will require pressure, while their democratic opposition will require support.

[DanS]

OK, that's the affirmative case, which I think the Ukraine satisfies. Are you under the impression that an undemocratic corrupt hack was voted in?

[DanS]

You are off by about $100 billion.

Iraq costs $150 billion per annum? That seems rather high. At a minimum, I ask you to show your figures.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned


No doubt, Strangelove, the US has long advocated "human rights." What is new about the Bush doctrine is that we see the quest for democracy as the only hope for permanent peace. That is a distinction with a difference.

Errrrrr.........That was Carter's policy as well, and the results were...

Neither Palestine, Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon are out of the woods yet. If "democrtatic" changes have an undesired effect we may yet see a change in policy.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by DanS
Few are losing their lives in most of these revolutions.

Iraq makes up for it a lot. Over 100 dead today.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
OK, that's the affirmative case, which I think the Ukraine satisfies. Are you under the impression that an undemocratic corrupt hack was voted in?

DUH.

[DanS]

Well, what's your bill of particulars for Yushenko?