Will this decide if Turkey has a future in the EU?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
And the new one:

Cute. Although for cultural value I'd prefer the old statue

BTW, I just found the article when browsing BBC randomly....I found the story rather funny.

[our_man]

Right, after seeing this we should definitely not let Turkey into the EU. Reason: their tackiness (how godawful is that new statue?) would destabilize the entire region.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I guess you want Germany out of the EU then?

What makes you think that? The Germans have dealt with their past, they arent occupying any third state, they are a real democracy. What problems could I possibly have with them.

I know some of my reasons seem illogical to some people but they are still my opinions ans I reserve the right to have such opinions.

You who called me racist seem to have some trouble in reading. I have no problem letting even more religious muslim countries like Libya in the EU. If you read my post slow enough you will understand how it is the Turks who have been the greatest racists of them all. And since some of you dont know how Asia Minor was converted to islam. In the Ottoman era, the Turks snatched christian greek children from their prents and raised them to be muslim fundies. Not so nice eh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
So are we saying that Europe is a cultural idea rather than a geographic one? Because that opens up a lot.

It must be cultural, because Cyprus, Malta (a country with a Semitic non-European language) and Israel & Turkey take part in the Eurovision Song Contest, that well-known unifier of European civilization and way to settle and prolong old disputes.

Saying that Turkey isn't European because geographically part of it is now in Asia means that Greenland should be considered North American because of its geography, or that Australia is in some way 'Asiatic' because of its location.

Turkey has been a part of Europe since Ottoman conquests in the Balkans and in Rhodes, the Dodecanese and Cyprus. It's been European since Turkish culture was adopted by European states and since a moderate Europeanized Turkish influenced Islam was adopted in the Balkans.

And it's certainly European since Ataturk secularized it, rejected the flowing Ottoman script and a national Islamic religion and introduced a European civil code and rights for women and banned the fez and introduced Latin script.

As to its human rights record, one has only to look at the way France dealt with Algeria and the Bretons,Spain with Basques, and Great Britain with Irish Republicans to look for similar ways to mistreat ethnic and cultural minorities.

[Imran Siddiqui]

they are still my opinions ans I reserve the right to have such opinions.

And we have the right to mock you for them you little racist . Not we didn't say you were racists against Muslims, but against Turks.

[Maniac]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asmodean
Erm...corect me if I'm wrong, but we are talking about the European Union...right?

Odin says rightly so that the concept of Europe is a human construct, and then you say "That's irrelevant. Europe is Europe. Asia is Asia." Don't you see the problem or irony here?

Ever heard of metaphores, Maniac? I know they're not medieval

Even if you didn't fully mean it and it was an exaggeration, it creates a trend to use certain terms and consider them acceptable, and who knows when used a lot after a while some silly people (they exist) will actually start thinking Turkey is medieval. So I guess it's better to squash such statements right away.

About the Eastern European countries: They have indeed made tremendous progress since the change, but I truly don't think that bringing them in so soon was a good idea. The increased number of Eastern European workers in Denmark only goes to prove this. I is a bit hard to demand that only wealthy countries should be allowed to join, but I would have been more comfortable if they had been made to wait a few more years. But that's okay, since they are from a culture almost like ours.

Do you really consider yourself to have the same culture as some über-catholic and conservative Pole who lived under communism for a few decades? Well perhaps you do in case you're a conservative yourself, but I certainly don't feel the Polish culture resembles mine much more than the Turkish...

Does this also cover the Kurdish question? I have no numbers to support this, but my gut feeling is that the number of young Turks who wants to give the Kurds their land is just as small as the number of older Turks who want that.

Good argument. But then again, would you consider throwing Spain or UK out of the EU because of Basque or North Ireland?

I really don't care, since I don't want them in.

See. You've proved my point. I get the impression you don't care about Turkish human rights, but are just using it as an excuse.

I still feel that these "changes" in Turkey should have come from within, and I am certainly not ready to give them membership as a reward for anything!!!

They are coming from within. It's still Turkey that voluntarily wants to join the Union and therefore voluntary changes their behaviour. Besides, almost every change ever happened is always a combination of external and internal dynamics. You can't really seperate those.

The question in my mind is: Why would you want them to join??

Whio says I do? I don't really care that much (see my previous post here). What irritates me is not the opinion of people (I'm a moral relativist after all), but that people use ridiculous and incorrect facts and arguments to support their opinion.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


And we have the right to mock you for them you little racist . Not we didn't say you were racists against Muslims, but against Turks.

Whatever fool. And critisising USA or Israel makes me either anti-american or anti-semitic right? :

[Imran Siddiqui]

You aren't just criticising the country though. Calling the city names barbaric, decrying past atrocities without looking at the atrocities of current members. You are racist but don't want to seem like it, so you don't out and out say it. But we see right through you.

[VetLegion]

More funny news from Turkey:

Turkish prisoners made hole in cell wall to produce third inmate
Weird News News
ISTANBUL (AFP)
Sunday February 27, 2005

Two Turkish prison inmates who drilled a nine-centimetre (3.6-inch) aperture between their cells enabling them to have sexual relations in prison that produced a child, received four-month sentences for damaging public property.

Convicted murderer Seylan Corduk, 40, and Kadriye Fikret Oget, 27, serving time for planting a bomb in a market, managed to drive the hole through their concrete communal cell wall, according to court records quoted by the newspapers Vatan et Hurriyet.

The guilty pair each originally received one-year sentences plus a 218-million-Turkish-lira fine (128 euros, 169 dollars).

But the court reduced the penalty to four months and 72 million lira "in view of the neglible nature of the damage caused."

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You aren't just criticising the country though. Calling the city names barbaric, decrying past atrocities without looking at the atrocities of current members. You are racist but don't want to seem like it, so you don't out and out say it. But we see right through you.

Yep, right through him.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Sandman
Shocking! Converting huge tracts of land to your religion by force is so un-European.

[Spiffor]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by laurentius

The Germans have dealt with their past

They are the exception rather than the norm. I don't think the Austrians or the Finns have done either. More distantly (for a timeframe that fits the problems you are seeing with Turkey), I don't think that Spain, Britiain or France made anything more than a token "dealing with their pasts" when it comes to the genocides perpetrated in America, mass slavery, and mass conversions.

they arent occupying any third state

Why would you accept Israel again? And of course, Khadafi's personal history of imperialism in Chad should be completely disregarded.

they are a real democracy.

Yup, Turkey is so much less democratic than Lybia and Tunisia.

I know some of my reasons seem illogical to some people but they are still my opinions ans I reserve the right to have such opinions.

You have the right to have them. And I have the right to call them utterly idiotic. Your opinions are probably the worst possible rationalization of keeping Turkey's out, because you single out Turkey for bullcrap reasons (face it, all important countries have a very dark history, it's certainly not specific to Turkey). The charicatural inclusion of Tunisia and Lybia in your argument really shows that you don't care about the human rights thing, but merely that you specifically hate the Turks

You who called me racist seem to have some trouble in reading. I have no problem letting even more religious muslim countries like Libya in the EU.

You are a racist toward the Turks. You're not required to hate all of Islam to be a racist. The hatred toward a single ethnicity (the Turks) fits the bill.

If you read my post slow enough you will understand how it is the Turks who have been the greatest racists of them all.

That's funny, I don't remember it was the Turks who said that them native Americans, or them Blacks had no soul. I don't remember that the Turks are the ones whose history holds the worst genocide ever.

And since some of you dont know how Asia Minor was converted to islam. In the Ottoman era, the Turks snatched christian greek children from their prents and raised them to be muslim fundies. Not so nice eh.

Yep, that sure is incredibly worse than the Spanish inquisition, and Turkey should be hated for the rest of eternity because of that

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You aren't just criticising the country though. Calling the city names barbaric, decrying past atrocities without looking at the atrocities of current members. You are racist but don't want to seem like it, so you don't out and out say it. But we see right through you.

The thing many of you dont seem to get is that while Spain, England, Belgium, France and many other EU member states have committed atrocities in the past, they are already members and so they are irrelevant to what we are discussing here, wich is; Why shouldnt Turkey be let in. The only thing we should be focusing here is what Turkey has done, since its is the one wanting to be a member.
Where have I overlooked at the atrocities of the current members btw?I'm pro basque nation, I'm pro united Ireland and I think Frnace should apologise Algerians. I dont over look anything Mr. I just think those issues are irrelevant ot the matter at hand.

Calling city names barbaric is part of my personal vendetta against the barbarisation of Greaco-Roman heritage in general. Non-constructive? Maybe, but I would like to see latin as EUs lingua franca too. Thats again just my wish. Turkey being the target here only because their hypoctitical way of making money with other peoples past while having destroyed the places and killed the people themselves.

You and your over simplifying peers think you can just quit other peoples opinions by shouting "You are teh racist!1" but it doesnt work that way. You just make bigger fool out of yourself than you are.. You think you see through me? I dont think so. I dont think you see through anything.

[Kuciwalker]

The thing many of you dont seem to get is that while Spain, England, Belgium, France and many other EU member states have committed atrocities in the past, they are already members and so they are irrelevant to what we are discussing here, wich is; Why shouldnt Turkey be let in.

Why not kick them out, since they seem to not meet your criteria for being in?

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Spiffor

They are the exception rather than the norm. I don't think the Austrians or the Finns have done either. More distantly (for a timeframe that fits the problems you are seeing with Turkey), I don't think that Spain, Britiain or France made anything more than a token "dealing with their pasts" when it comes to the genocides perpetrated in America, mass slavery, and mass conversions.

Maybe so, but I find discussion about current members past crimes irrelevant to this discussion about whether we should accept Turkey in.

they arent occupying any third state

Why would you accept Israel again? And of course, Khadafi's personal history of imperialism in Chad should be completely disregarded.

I said if they would meet the criteria. At the moment they dont and I never said they did. Anyway Israel and Palestinians might be finding a solution soon, so another obstacle from their membership might be gone soon. Libya on the otherhand is quite developed society deep down and when Gaddafis rule ends I dont see any problem with them joining. We have to remember here that whatever happened in Chad was Gaddafis, the military dictators idea.

Yup, Turkey is so much less democratic than Lybia and Tunisia.

Again I never said any of those countries meet the criteria atm.

You have the right to have them. And I have the right to call them utterly idiotic. Your opinions are probably the worst possible rationalization of keeping Turkey's out, because you single out Turkey for bullcrap reasons (face it, all important countries have a very dark history, it's certainly not specific to Turkey). The charicatural inclusion of Tunisia and Lybia in your argument really shows that you don't care about the human rights thing, but merely that you specifically hate the Turks

Sure and I appreciate you opinion. In fact I thank you for the first matter-of-fact comments so far made by anyone. Again, i know I'm repeating myself here but the subject at hand is Turkey, not Spain, not France, not UK, but Turkey. So lets talk Turkey who wants to be in not the current members who we cant throw out just like that.

Tunisia and Libya were included because of the sophistication of those societies. They have problems, they dont meet the criteria yet, but their problems with democracy can be solved as well as anyones. Neighbouring Algerias, Moroccos or Egypts problems are of a whole other magnitude. Dont you agree?

You people are drawing such a long assumptions about me and what I care about byt just one post. Thats insulting.

You are a racist toward the Turks. You're not required to hate all of Islam to be a racist. The hatred toward a single ethnicity (the Turks) fits the bill.

I dont hate Islam, I dont hate the Turks as a people. I only hate the mindset in Turkey atm and the official denial they live in. So please stop all this racist bull****. OK?

That's funny, I don't remember it was the Turks who said that them native Americans, or them Blacks had no soul. I don't remember that the Turks are the ones whose history holds the worst genocide ever.

What does the american indians or blacks rights have to do with Turkeys membership in the EU!?

Cant you at least try to keep this on topic?

Yep, that sure is incredibly worse than the Spanish inquisition, and Turkey should be hated for the rest of eternity because of that

Nope, its pretty much the same. And dont forget the destruction of the Inca empire as well.