Will this decide if Turkey has a future in the EU?

[Dinner]

BTW Wycoff Turks are not very religious as a people. I mean people regularly worship but they've had 80 years of seporation between politics and religion so the country is highly secularized. Arabs on the other hand are extremely religious and nonsecularized.

Imran:

Look at the numbers again, the Iraq war has driven support for the US down very much. Turkey even decided not to back the US coalition,

Turkey got cold feet about doing actual fighting or launching an invasion from its borders but there are currently Turkish Forces in northern Iraq. Only about 1000 but they're used in a few areas where Turkomen are the majority.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Third, Turkey doesn't mesh well culturally with the rest of Europe. There are a variety of important differences, but the most prominent reason is that Turkey is far more religious than Europe, and its Muslim. That wouldn't appear to mesh well with Europe. Furthermore, those countries in Europe that are more relgious (like Poland) are Catholic and more intolerant of Islam. Tossing a large Muslim nation in the mix wouldn't be the best way to keep EU stability.

I have a feeling this has a lot to do with it

WHy do You think Poland is intolerant of Islam?
We used to have a Muslim marschall of Pariament (and it's the third office in the state) soon after the fall of communism. We have a Muslim minority for over 600 years, and have traditionally good reationship with Turkey. Poland officially supports Turkish membership, even if majority of people woud probably vote against it.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Asmodean
Whether it's a human creation or not really isn't relevant. Europe is Europe, and Asia is Asia.

Perhaps they have made progress on paper, but that just doesn't cut it. Things like that takes ages. What is needed isn't laws and regulations - it's a question of changing the basic attitude of all Turks to this. That akes a long time. You just don't go from medieval to enlightened in 10 years.

The laws and regulations are sometimes indeed not applied in practice. However no one is saying Turkey should join before the new laws are truly applied. I think such a big change can happen in some ten years. Look at for example the Eastern European countries. Fifteen years ago they were all communist- now they're EU members as well.

Btw, by calling them medieval you'd only prove your ignorance about this subject, and my suggestion that you are a racist culturalist...

Why should we reward them for making changes that they should have seen the need for themselves? These changes are coming only because they hope to join the EU. So how sincere the changes are, remains to be seen, doesn't it?

The image that those changes are only happening because of EU pressure is a bit extreme. There are also many internal forces that support the changes, eg some months ago about that divorce issue or something (or whatever it was, can't remember exactly). The EU joining process gives those internal groups more influence in decision-making, and increases their support among the population. So once a change to the in our opinion good is made, it will become more and more difficult to reverse it at a later date, certainly after young generations of Turks have grown up with these new rights (which will be quite a few already in ten years).

Oh come on. Everytime somebode mentions this, someone else sounds the racism alarm. This is not a matter of racial differences. It's a matter of cultural differences. And these are just too large. Especially with the current islamic awakening taking place in Turkey.

The question remains: When do you think the Turks are more likely to Europeanize their laws (and as a next step change their everyday attitude more to "ours") instead of turning to Islamism? When we give them the prospect of EU membership and support the pro-European internal forces, or when we turn them off?

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker You don't see a problem with the EU deciding not to admit Turkey because it's MUSLIM?

No. I don't see any problem with the EU turning down any country for any reason. Should the EU be obligated to admit, say, Ghana if Ghana met the accession criteria and wanted to join? The members of the union have a right to decide which countries they do and do not want. Its not our place as Americans to judge who they admit and who they don't.

[Dinner]

It's everyones' place to judge and advocate their point of view. That's part of being human but so is ignoring the opinions of people you don't like.

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by Maniac

Erm...corect me if I'm wrong, but we are talking about the European Union...right?

The laws and regulations are sometimes indeed not applied in practice. However no one is saying Turkey should join before the new laws are truly applied. I think such a big change can happen in some ten years. Look at for example the Eastern European countries. Fifteen years ago they were all communist- now they're EU members as well.

Btw, by calling them medieval you'd only prove your ignorance about this subject, and my suggestion that you are a racist culturalist...

Ever heard of metaphores, Maniac?
I know they're not medieval, but I must admit that I think their human rights policy has been. About the Eastern European countries: They have indeed made tremendous progress since the change, but I truly don't think that bringing them in so soon was a good idea. The increased number of Eastern European workers in Denmark only goes to prove this. I is a bit hard to demand that only wealthy countries should be allowed to join, but I would have been more comfortable if they had been made to wait a few more years. But that's okay, since they are from a culture almost like ours.

The image that those changes are only happening because of EU pressure is a bit extreme. There are also many internal forces that support the changes, eg some months ago about that divorce issue or something (or whatever it was, can't remember exactly). The EU joining process gives those internal groups more influence in decision-making, and increases their support among the population. So once a change to the in our opinion good is made, it will become more and more difficult to reverse it at a later date, certainly after young generations of Turks have grown up with these new rights (which will be quite a few already in ten years).

Does this also cover the Kurdish question? I have no numbers to support this, but my gut feeling is that the number of young Turks who wants to give the Kurds their land is just as small as the number of older Turks who want that.

The question remains: When do you think the Turks are more likely to Europeanize their laws (and as a next step change their everyday attitude more to "ours") instead of turning to Islamism? When we give them the prospect of EU membership and support the pro-European internal forces, or when we turn them off?

I really don't care, since I don't want them in. I still feel that these "changes" in Turkey should have come from within, and I am certainly not ready to give them membership as a reward for anything!!!

The question in my mind is: Why would you want them to join??

Asmodean

[Imran Siddiqui]

Erm...corect me if I'm wrong, but we are talking about the European Union...right?

And if I'm not mistaken, there were Greek cities on the Turkish coast for generations. And Istanbul was the center of the Byzantine Empire and has been considered European. Is not Greek European? Is not Istanbul/Constantinople/Byzantium European?

Do not the Turks play in UEFA? They don't play in the Asian Football Association. Wasn't the old Ottoman Empire refered to as the 'sick man of EUROPE' before WW1?

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Erm...corect me if I'm wrong, but we are talking about the European Union...right?

And if I'm not mistaken, there were Greek cities on the Turkish coast for generations. And Istanbul was the center of the Byzantine Empire and has been considered European. Is not Greek European? Is not Istanbul/Constantinople/Byzantium European?

Do not the Turks play in UEFA? They don't play in the Asian Football Association. Wasn't the old Ottoman Empire refered to as the 'sick man of EUROPE' before WW1?

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Turkish.php#constantinople

" It is important for us to realize that today,1982, only 4,000 Greeks still remain in Constantinople."

[Imran Siddiqui]

So are we saying that Europe is a cultural idea rather than a geographic one? Because that opens up a lot.

[Sandman]

Erm...corect me if I'm wrong, but we are talking about the European Union...right?

Hmm, do you by any chance think that koala bears are actually bears?

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by Sandman


Hmm, do you any chance think that koala bears are actually bears?

Asmodean

[Lawrence of Arabia]

the EU should definitly accept turkey - it will show many moderate muslims that we dont hate them.

[Spiffor]

I think he means that the word to describe something isn't necessarily the actual "something".

Koala bears are no bears. By the same token, you can't make an argument from the fact that the EU has "European" in its name. At least, that's how I understand it.

[laurentius]

I dont think we have to show anyone anything. This is more important than that. I say lets have Bosnia Herzegovina instead.

[VetLegion]

Is Denmark the most xenophobic EU country?