Announcement

**Last Conformist** · February 26, 2005, 10:14

Why are they removing it?

**BeBMan** · February 26, 2005, 10:15

Yeah good question - and why do they use a plastic Santa instead

**Wycoff** · February 26, 2005, 10:21

Why should Turkey be in the EU?

It seems that the U.S. is pushing that with hopes that Turkish membership would weaken the structure as a whole. If I were an EU member, I'd be wary about the EU doing anything membershipwise that the US pushes for. THe US certainly isn't looking out for the EU's best interests.

**Sandman** · February 26, 2005, 10:33

The EU tends to be keen on promoting regional cultures, so removing the statue was an anti-EU move. And yes, why did they remove it?

**DeathByTheSword** · February 26, 2005, 15:41

Turkey WILL become a EU member

... and is this the american santa claus that lives on the north pole or the dutch on that is living in spain?

**Flandrien** · February 26, 2005, 19:27

It is the Dutch one, and has nothing to do with the Coca Cola Santa Clause.

**Asmodean** · February 26, 2005, 19:37

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
Turkey WILL become a EU member :doitnow:

Over my dead body. What on earth are we to gain from a Turkish membership of the EU. We'll be inviting a world of problems, with no easy solution.

- Turkish human rights still leave a lot to be desired

- The whole Kurdish question. (Can we really have a memberstate that continuously harrasses and even makes war on a minority)

- The fact that Turkey is predominantly an Asian country

- Did I mention human rights

- Economically they aren't doing too hot, either. I'm not interested in any more of my tax euros going to underdeveloped southern nations, that I don't have the slightest in common with.

- There are many indicators that Turkey are moving towards more orthodox islamic rule. We most certainly don't want that in the EU. (No racism here - just Human Rights again.

So why anybody would want Turkey in the EU, is simply beyond me.

Asmodean

**VetLegion** · February 26, 2005, 20:16

I think the Kiel canal should be expanded.

**Odin** · February 26, 2005, 20:22

Originally posted by Asmodean

- The fact that Turkey is predominantly an Asian country

"Europe" is a human creation, geologically and geographically there is only Eurasia, the division between "Europe" and "Asia" is completely artificial.

IF Turkey stops violating human rights and gives the Kurds at least autonomy, they should be allowed in, but not before.

**Dinner** · February 26, 2005, 20:40

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Why are they removing it?

Pure speculation but I'd guess some muslim fundies didn't like the idea of a Christian saint holding a bible.

**Maniac** · February 26, 2005, 20:48

Originally posted by Asmodean
- Turkish human rights still leave a lot to be desired

In order to apply for the European Union, Turkey has made tremendous and by everyone unexpected progress on the matter of human rights. When do you think this evolution is most likely to continue? When we give them the prospect of EU membership in the future, or when we say them outright: "We don't want you here! Go away!"

- The whole Kurdish question. (Can we really have a memberstate that continuously harrasses and even makes war on a minority)

Once again, the EU is urging Turkey to give the Kurds more and more rights - we're being even stricter towards Turkey (and all other new C- & E-Eur members for that matter) about minority rights than we are with the orinigal EU15. So when do you think the Kurds are most likely to get their desired rights? When Turkey has the prospect of joining the EU when they fulfill certain criteria, or when we just turn them away?

Playing the troll here, I'd say, would one be really interested in human rights, one would applaude the Turkish efforts to join the EU, and not use human rights as an excuse to hide one's racism.

That being said, if it weren't for the fact that we had already made clear promises to Turkey, I wouldn't mind that much if they didn't join the EU. I'm for a strong and social Europe, and the more poor countries join before we do our own necessary homework, the less likely that social Europe's going to happen of course.

**Wycoff** · February 26, 2005, 21:36

Originally posted by Asmodean

So why anybody would want Turkey in the EU, is simply beyond me.

Asmodean

The US political leaderships wants it, because they see admiting Turkey would weaken the EU as a whole. An unstable EU would pose less of a threat to the US.

Admitting Turkey into the EU would be like adding Mexico to the US.

**Imran Siddiqui** · February 26, 2005, 23:51

That's silly... and very, paranoid. The US government doesn't want Turkey in to weaken the EU! Turkey has the best military of any country not named Britain and France. it is poorer, per capita, than any EU member, but has an incredibly high growth rate.

I don't see how Turkey weakens the organization. It's military, in fact, would make it better.

Admitting Turkey into the EU would be like adding Mexico to the US.

No, it'd be more like adding Mexico to NAFTA... wait a minute!

I wonder why people think the EU is one country already

**Wycoff** · February 27, 2005, 01:09

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
That's silly... and very, paranoid. The US government doesn't want Turkey in to weaken the EU! Turkey has the best military of any country not named Britain and France. it is poorer, per capita, than any EU member, but has an incredibly high growth rate.

I don't see how Turkey weakens the organization. It's military, in fact, would make it better.

It may be strong militarily, but I'm talking socially and politically. First of all, its population size would automatically make it one of the most influential members of the EU. I doubt that Germany or France would be very pleased with a further erosion of their relative power.

Second, to go along with the first argument, the US and Turkey have historically close ties. A powerful, pro-US state in the EU would be a benefit for the US, but a blow to current members like France and Germany. I think that that's the primary reason that the US supports their membership.

Third, Turkey doesn't mesh well culturally with the rest of Europe. There are a variety of important differences, but the most prominent reason is that Turkey is far more religious than Europe, and its Muslim. That wouldn't appear to mesh well with Europe. Furthermore, those countries in Europe that are more relgious (like Poland) are Catholic and more intolerant of Islam. Tossing a large Muslim nation in the mix wouldn't be the best way to keep EU stability.

Fourth, many EU members are having probelms with Turks in their populations. Would it be appreciated if Turkey were given open borders with the rest of the EU? How many more Turks would flood into the rest of Europe? How would the member states' populations react to that? I'd bet that racial tensions would be exacerbated in such a situation

Fifth, how much would Turkey need in transfer payments and other EU funds? The EU is already paying to develop the Iberian states, Greece, and the new Eastern European states. How could it afford to pay for Turkey?

Sixth, there are significant historical tensions between Turkey and the rest of Europe. First of all, the Ottomans were a dangerous threat to Europe well into the Seventeenth century. While its arguable how much that would matter to Western European states, but it would probably mean more to Central European states or potential ones (like those in the Balkans), and it definately would matter to Greece and Cyprus. What would the political ramifications be if those three were all part of one entity?

This is why I think that Turkish membership would be detrimental to EU stability, at least in the short run. I think that the US is strategically benefitted by a less stable EU, as Europe is stronger as a sum of its parts.

I'm not a tinfoil hat wearing-America hater, I just think that we should keep our noses out of Europe's business. Its their union; let them decide who can and cannot join. I'd be pissed if Europe was pressuring us to add Sonora as a state.

No, it'd be more like adding Mexico to NAFTA... wait a minute!

I wonder why people think the EU is one country already

Come on, Imran, I know you're smarter than that. The EU is much more state-like than NAFTA. NAFTA has no common currency. NAFTA doesn't have open borders (never mind how much Bush would like it to). NAFTA isn't trying to create a common foreign and defense policy. NAFTA isn't creating a Constitution. I could go on. Besides, is Mexico in NAFTA even a good thing for the US? That's debateable.

The EU isn't a state yet, but its trying to be something. It seems to be coming close to an Articles of Confederation type gray area (even the US under the articles didn't have a common currency). There must be political and social concerns taken into consideration before a state may join the EU, as its a delicate work in progress. I wouldn't advocate that Russia join the EU now either, and Russia is at least culturally more in tune with the rest of the EU (though it has historical problems with current member states rival or even dwarf those of Turkey). Bottom line is that its not our business to tell the EU who to allow to join, and if I were in a European I'd be against their accession.

Announcement

Will this decide if Turkey has a future in the EU?

Will this decide if Turkey has a future in the EU?

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