French workers fight for the right to be lazy

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by PLATO
When you guys first went to the 35 hour week, I had hopes that this would eventually lead to a 32 hour/4 day week. Long has this been a goal for American Unions, while seemingly always in the far future. Sadly, this step backwards leaves that dream as nothing more than a passing thought.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the step backwards. In 1936, France entered the era of the 40 hours workweek and paid vacation (2 weeks were the workers were paid "not to work" to the shock of our capitalists). Only two years after, as the war was looming, these laws were completely emptied.

But here we are now, with a 35 hours workweek people have grown almost immediately fond of, and 5 weeks of paid vacation. And we're not the most advanced country in Europe, by far. I think some countries actually are working 32 hours (Denmark?) and are managing well

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Additionally, we're having grave integration problems that won't be solved anytime soon.

lots of rascists in paris eh?

We should clean up our own mess before opening the gates.

maybe opening the gates will solve the problem.

And then, there's the EU to ponder. If we accept a massive flow of immigrants, it means they'll travel in the EU, and go to countries that don't want immigration.

you dont have to give them citizenship. that would solve the problem. they could have french work permits, and then when they try to go to england would need to apply for another one.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
That's an ideological statement, and it is yours. I personally revile the idea that in rich society such as ours, people can be poor despite working. And if, to avoid such a society, we need strong regulations and generous welfare that will be abused by some, then so be it.

I'm talking from the viewpoint of society, whose rights you commies seem to love to invoke

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
lots of rascists in paris eh?

The worst part of it is that Paris is among the least racist parts of France. But racism isn't the only problem, as the new generation of Naghrebins have developed a counter-culture, and is now much less willing to integrate than one or two decades ago. The integration problems France is currently facing are very deep, and cannot be simply blamed on "lots of racists".

maybe opening the gates will solve the problem.

I strongly doubt it. Many people feel there are too many foreigners already (more accurately, this resentment is almost exclusively centred on Arabs and Blacks), and these reactions can be seen in cosmopolitan places (Marseille) just as much as in highly homogenous places (villages in the backcountry).

The problem is a general malaise in our society, and forcing further change will only bring more anger and frustration. The Socialist stay in power (1997-2002) brought quite a modernist outlook, and whenever I read some journal article of that period, I'm amazed at how futuristic the society of that time looked. Since 2002, we have entered a reactionary age, which is simply a reaction on the too fast pace of change made by the socialists. As much as I hate it, changing things too quickly has a strong chance to failure.

you dont have to give them citizenship. that would solve the problem.

But we don't! Becoming a French citizen without marriage or birthright has become increasingly difficiult in the past decades.

they could have french work permits, and then when they try to go to england would need to apply for another one.

The problem is not so much England, which is probably the most foreigner-friendly country in the EU. The problem is with Germany, Italy, Spain... These countries are spending many resources to restrict immigration, and if one EU country makes a grand opening, then the migrants will be free to travel wherever they wish in the EU, with little chances of being checked at the borders. That would considerably ease their ability to live illegally in some European place. basically, a grand opening of one country would mean a very acute illiegal immigration problem in the EU.

[Kuciwalker]

Spiffor, why did you leave L'event?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Well, it's not exactly what's happening you know... Unemployment benefits are definitely not good enough to make up for a high paid job,

Nor should they be other wise what is the incentive to find a job? The object of unemployment is to make sure people don't starve or become homeless not to live in luxury. If they want more then survival then get a job. There are a ton of people who won't accept work because they won't make as much as before or it is in another city so I say tough. Mind you I am unemployment and I am saying this.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The problem is with Germany, Italy, Spain... These countries are spending many resources to restrict immigration, and if one EU country makes a grand opening, then the migrants will be free to travel wherever they wish in the EU, with little chances of being checked at the borders.

. . . and they would suck on the welfare. thats why its important to restrict welfare so these people cant come just to live there and use it. but again, if you deny them work permits, and have low welfare, they wont come. its germanys fault if their welfare is so high that people can move there without needing to get a job.

[Dinner]

France has enough unemployed people so why import more? If you want low wage workers then look no further then the new EU members who will all be moving west as soon as they can.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Spiffor, why did you leave L'event?

Exclusively because my uni paper has been bugging me for nearly a year now, and I decided to cut on what passes for unproductive activity. Unfortunately, I never managed to leaqve the OT, and thus, every time I wanted to spend "30 minutes" on the OT, I ended up spending the whole day, thus dragging me even more for my uni paper.

Now that my paper in due in barely more than 2 weeks, I'll soon finally take a breath, and will not have any bad feelings about spamming l'Event. But in the meantime, I really should go to sleep. Tonight, I have been trapped by the OT again

[Lawrence of Arabia]

France has enough unemployed people so why import more? If you want low wage workers then look no further then the new EU members who will all be moving west as soon as they can.

they are unemployed because there arnt enough low wage workers.
there arnt enough low wage workers because there is

1. too much unemployment benefits
2. not enough immigrants.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
. . . and they would suck on the welfare. thats why its important to restrict welfare so these people cant come just to live there and use it. but again, if you deny them work permits, and have low welfare, they wont come. its germanys fault if their welfare is so high that people can move there without needing to get a job.

There are very few opportunities for welfare when you're an illegal immigrant (what a migrant to an "open door" country would be if he went to another country). But still, working illegally in a kebab joint in Stuttgart brings much more money than doing some unskilled job in a Turkish village. And with this money, you can comfortably feed your family at home (even if your own life in Stuttgart is very precarious), because the prices are much lower there.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


they are unemployed because there arnt enough low wage workers.
there arnt enough low wage workers because there is

1. too much unemployment benefits
2. not enough immigrants.

And do you suppose Poles, Hungarians, even one day Rumanians, and Bulgarians could fill this role? They will be let in any way, you know. Why not let excess labor from new eastern members fill any spare jobs?

[FrostyBoy]

Where are you people from? Many of you think that working less is living more.

Working IS living. It's what all creatures must do in order to survive. Last year I worked 55 hours a week, and enjoyed it; no it wasn't an amazing job, I was just a storeman.

So, unless you have a family, get off your butt and work harder and longer; and don't see work as a means of getting paid, see it as you get paid so you can continue working.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Sn00py
Where are you people from? Many of you think that working less is living more.

Working IS living. It's what all creatures must do in order to survive. Last year I worked 55 hours a week, and enjoyed it; no it wasn't an amazing job, I was just a storeman.

So, unless you have a family, get off your butt and work harder and longer; and don't see work as a means of getting paid, see it as you get paid so you can continue working.

Wow. Married or not, you need to get a life.

I've loved -- loved! -- every job I've ever had (in my adult life, anyway), and yet I can honestly say that I've enjoyed every hour away from work more than every hour at work. I cannot hang out with friends, play golf or poker, read for pleasure, practice balck-and-white photography, go to the theater, swim, help my daughter with her homework, or have sex at work. Obviously, by definition, I can't travel around the world at work (though, as a diplomat, I can get close...).

I'm capable of filling every waking hour with something more pleasureable than work; why would I want to work more?

The most telling past of your post is: "Working IS living. It's what all creatures must do in order to survive." Living and surviving are NOT the same thing. Not for most of us, anyway.

[Ben Kenobi]

I disagree.

The best thing for me over the last few months has been my first week back working, where I did 48 hours, 8 hours a day over 6 days.

If I worked like that every week, so many of my other stresses would go down. My work is good, the pay okay, and the conditions are good as well.

For a labourer, I can think of plenty of other things that improve the conditions under which somebody works, that do not involve limitations of the work week.

Me, I want to make enough money so I don't have to worry about rent, and about making choices like whether or not to get my eyes checked or buy enough food to eat.

If I only get 25 hours a week, as I have been getting, this is what my life is like. If I work 48, things are good.

Sadly I work in a real job, and not one with a set workweek. If there is work that needs to be done, I am working, and when there is nothing I can't ask to get paid for just sitting around.