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**Berzerker** · January 31, 2005, 01:39

Do you agree that everything that the Iraq invasion brings or has brought forth is the responsiblity of the Bush administration, good or bad?

That's a difficult question, at what point do the Iraqi people become arbiters of their own destiny? Its true we helped the Afghans against the Russians and we ended up with the Taliban letting Al Qaida use the country as a base. So there is a chain reaction or cause and effect to how events evolve and we could have avoided all this crappola had we stayed the **** out of the ME. But given Bush's position in time, this is a major achievement. I mean, think about the mess in Israel and how long that has been boiling and Bush pulled this off in 2 years. Of course, if we see a civil war erupt Bush et al will be complicit so give credit where credit is due when things go right.

**Jaakko** · January 31, 2005, 01:45

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You aren't understanding the facts, jakko. But your leftism has caused delusions in your mind that caused this. You must shut up now.

Well, if that's how it must be. But it still makes me very sad to see you respond with such a barrage of insults to someone who wants to have a talk with you.

**Jaakko** · January 31, 2005, 01:49

Originally posted by Berzerker

That's a difficult question, at what point do the Iraqi people become arbiters of their own destiny? Its true we helped the Afghans against the Russians and we ended up with the Taliban letting Al Qaida use the country as a base. So there is a chain reaction or cause and effect to how events evolve and we could have avoided all this crappola had we stayed the **** out of the ME. But given Bush's position in time, this is a major achievement. I mean, think about the mess in Israel and how long that has been boiling and Bush pulled this off in 2 years. Of course, if we see a civil war erupt Bush et al will be complicit so give credit where credit is due when things go right.

There is the little thing about Bush not agreeing to these elections before being leaned on heavily by Sistani and other moderate Iraqi elements. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the success of Iraqis will be despite the US.

**Berzerker** · January 31, 2005, 02:03

Tell me, what success were Iraqis having under Saddam?

**Jaakko** · January 31, 2005, 02:30

Originally posted by Berzerker
Tell me, what success were Iraqis having under Saddam?

What's that got to do with anything? Is the Bush admin's complicity in the whole Iraq mess wiped clean by the fact that Saddam was removed?

"At least we're better than Saddam" does not an excuse make.

Edit: to make an example, if I can run the Iraq reconstruction funds and lose only 8 billion dollars of American taxpayer money in a black hole instead of 9, does it mean I get a free pass for losing those 8 billion dollars?

**Giancarlo** · January 31, 2005, 02:32

Originally posted by Jaakko

Well, if that's how it must be. But it still makes me very sad to see you respond with such a barrage of insults to someone who wants to have a talk with you.

If you want to have a talk with me get off your rants and delusions, and grow up. You try to make insane statements like saying that the Iraqis were better off with Saddam. First off, I've seen enough of your immaturity on my campus. I'm sick of it. You people never suggest any working alternative anyways.

**Jaakko** · January 31, 2005, 02:36

Originally posted by Giancarlo

If you want to have a talk with me get off your rants and delusions, and grow up. You try to make insane statements like saying that the Iraqis were better off with Saddam. First off, I've seen enough of your immaturity on my campus. I'm sick of it. You people never suggest any working alternative anyways.

Where did I say Iraqis were better off with Saddam? A direct quote please, or I'll consider you a liar who fabricates accusations in order to attack someone.

**Giancarlo** · January 31, 2005, 02:37

Originally posted by Jaakko

Where did I say Iraqis were better off with Saddam? A direct quote please, or I'll consider you a liar who fabricates accusations in order to attack someone.

PRESENT SOME ****ING ALTERNATIVE TO MY VIEWS THEN I WOULD LOWER MY ACCUSATIONS!

**Jaakko** · January 31, 2005, 02:38

Originally posted by Giancarlo

PRESENT SOME ****ING ALTERNATIVE TO MY VIEWS THEN I WOULD LOWER MY ACCUSATIONS!

So you lied knowingly?

**ahenobarb** · January 31, 2005, 02:42

Interesting thread... until Captain Binary Logic showed up.

Just want to add that I think it's a great day for Iraq and the world. I wish them luck and success with their new nation. " A Republic, if you can keep it" to paraphrase Ben Franklin.

5 down, 1 to go for the democracy six pack:

Australia - John Howard
U.S. - Bush
Ukraine - Yushenko
Palestine - Mahmoud Abbas
Iraq - TDB

and...

Britain - Blair

**Jaakko** · January 31, 2005, 02:46

Originally posted by ahenobarb
Interesting thread... until Captain Binary Logic showed up.

Whoa, I thought Fez would be the only one who'd fall for it.

**Berzerker** · January 31, 2005, 03:20

What's that got to do with anything?

You said, and I quote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the success of Iraqis will be despite the US.

So, what success did they have under Saddam? Tis such a simple question

Is the Bush admin's complicity in the whole Iraq mess wiped clean by the fact that Saddam was removed?

Why are you dodging my question and changing the subject?

"At least we're better than Saddam" does not an excuse make.

We're a lot better, but should the US have stayed out of WWII because we were better than Hitler? Kinda bizarre statement, dontchya think?

Edit: to make an example, if I can run the Iraq reconstruction funds and lose only 8 billion dollars of American taxpayer money in a black hole instead of 9, does it mean I get a free pass for losing those 8 billion dollars?

So because Bush et al did bad or dumb things in the process of removing Saddam, the Iraqis will succeed inspite of the US? You aren't even trying to defend what you said...

**Ted Striker** · January 31, 2005, 03:22

Under Saddam moustache models made over 10 times what current moustache models are making:

**Spiffor** · January 31, 2005, 03:36

I am impressed by the success of the election. It was a demonstration of the Iraqi resolve to take their fate in their own hands, and it was a demonstartion of the efficiency of all security forces (USUK and Iraqi alike)

Moreover, it showed the actual unability of the insurgency to back their threats, as there was no nationwide terror campaign concentrated in one day. I think it'll boost the morale of all those who oppose the insurgency, and I hope this display of weakness will make more Sunnis understand this is a losing side

Overall, yesterday was a great day for Iraq. I can't wait to see what will be the outcome of this.

**Ted Striker** · January 31, 2005, 03:45

Originally posted by Spiffor
I am impressed by the success of the election. It was a demonstration of the Iraqi resolve to take their fate in their own hands, and it was a demonstartion of the efficiency of all security forces (USUK and Iraqi alike)

Moreover, it showed the actual unability of the insurgency to back their threats, as there was no nationwide terror campaign concentrated in one day. I think it'll boost the morale of all those who oppose the insurgency, and I hope this display of weakness will make more Sunnis understand this is a losing side

Overall, yesterday was a great day for Iraq. I can't wait to see what will be the outcome of this.

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