Informal boycott of French products taking hold...

[Spiffor]

Tass :
Don't worry, we know our weaknesses, and we know we are a bad country.
We also know every single other country manages to be even worse (j/k)

[Spec]

Originally posted by SpencerH


Whether montreal is safer than LA was not the point. You stated that "here you can walk in any alley in Montreal without fear". I havent been in Montreal since before you were born but St Catherines was a less than reputable place then and I'm reasonably sure it hasnt chnged that much since that time. So unless you're the re-incarnation of Bruce Lee you're stretching credulity a tad.

Ste-Catherines?! Are you serious?? You must really be scared easily because Ste-Catherines is busy 24 hours a day. There is always people on the street, nothing can happen to you. I would walk from east to west at any time of day! And you reasonably think that in 25 years it hasn't changed? Are you frikin serious?

No matter what you say, face it, Canada is a lot more safe than the U.S. overall. You know it, dont be a hard head over this.

Oh and Rah, point takin but I still beleive that your ignorant people are more ignorant

Spec.

[Sava]

while they may hate you today they'll forgive y'all and love y'all tomorrow

"Forgive" him for being French. And people wonder why the terrorists hate us.

[Spec]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
I typed up a long post replying to too many posts in this thead, but then I realized......

Why contribute to the senseless hatred?

To the US: You need to get over the French standing up for what they believe. Stop acting like little children by renaming stuff "Freedom fries" and essentially saying "Well, since you wont play it my way, I wont be friends with YOU anymore. I'll be friends with LITHUANIA. Neener neener neener!!!!". I'm sorry but for the people of a superpower to be acting like this is both terrible embarassing (sp) and disturbing and don't even get me started on when it goes to government level.

You guys need Clinton back

To France: Stop acting as if your morally superior in any way because France is NOT. You guys have commited your fair share of atrocities and while you feel guilty for them, stop pretending that your superior in any way.

To everyone: Just stop the mindless, childish hatred of one-another. Part of the reason that (dont laugh) adults can have sex and children can't is because adults are seen as MORE MATURE and able to make such a large decision. So instead of (on the French side) ACTING more mature, (to the Americans) BE more mature.

Children make you act like children.

Also, we need to make sure we distinguish the government from the people. Americans are ignorant, but they are very friendly people (if you can forgive the uber-patriotism). While the French generally are more intelligent, they also are (generally) snobbier than Americans.

Sorry Rah

[Cinna]

Originally posted by Spec


Ste-Catherines?! Are you serious?? You must really be scared easily because Ste-Catherines is busy 24 hours a day. There is always people on the street, nothing can happen to you. I would walk from east to west at any time of day! And you reasonably think that in 25 years it hasn't changed? Are you frikin serious?

Spec.

Are you serious? i have a lot of friends who go to mcgill, so i've visited montreal quite a few times. the people on st. catherines you are referring to must be bums, its one of the seediest places in Canada that i know of i practically ran to the metro (very safe btw) to go back after just a few blocks on St. Caths. other than that i cant think of any other really bad place in montreal. well, except for some of the side streets off place jaques cartier. but that just makes the tourists feel uncomfortable, not really dangerous. i actually almost went to mcgill myself, but i wussed

[Tingkai]

I thought Ste Catherines was the party street with all the great bars. At least I think that was the place I used to party back in the 80s. The only problem with the bars there was that everyone seemed to be from out of town.

Montreal is a great city. I never thought about crime, unlike walking near East Hastings in Vancouver, or going into pretty much any major American city.

[Frogman]

Montreal is a great city, but I am struck by this battle between french and english words on signs. I know they have to fight to keep english from overrunning the french flavor the city has, but it does point to this deeper battle the french are fighting to maintain the prominence of their culture vs american/english.

Its more than the french being against the war. Its the apparent backing and support of Saddams military and selling us out for economic gain by trading with Iraq in spite of the sanctions. The real anger comes from their unwillingness to work with us ever since the end of GW1 and their boasting about a veto even if they lost the vote on any UN mandate for force.

The germans seem to get off scott free in this, but we fought them twice last century while the french were supposed to be our allies. This is not an easy patch. The anger against the french in the US is widespread and deep. Add this to the cultural battle the french are waging and I don't see how this rift will heal.

As for me, I say screw the french. I won't drink their wine. I am going to enjoy watching them beg for a role in Iraq. I'm sure GWB has a real vital role in mind.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Chris 62
First, the French, as was there right, refused to agree with an ultimatum, BUT THEN went out of their way to ensure any vote would fail, even if they to veto it.
Considering that France has been circumventing UN snactions vs Iraq, that is quite damning.

Well Chris, I don't think you should look at this whole thing from a moralistic standpoint. This is politics and each country is out to serve its own interests.

Be that as it may, a sticky question remains as to why the US didn't put forth the second resolution. If the UNSC really would pass it, with France (possibly other countries as well), that's more political ammo for Bush & Co. One has to wonder why this wasn't done.

Originally posted by Chris 62
Another reason was attempting to bully NATO, an organization they don't contribute too militarily, by sabotaging protection for Turkey.

It turned out that Iraq was not capable to attack anybody. AFAIK, no Scuds were used. So France was correct in the estimation of Iraqi offensive capabilities.

Originally posted by Chris 62
A third reason is that many insiders say France applied presure to several key Turkish ministers, using the club of "no possibility of EU admintance" to get them to refuse US troops to be stationed in Turkey, making the war more difficult, and possibly more costly in lives lost.

Well if Bush wasn't that impatient, the second round of voting is supposed to allow the US use of bases in Turkey.

Originally posted by Chris 62
If France had simply said we want inspections, and then allowed a vote, without strong-arming African nations on the SC and threatening Veto, I doubt people would have boycotted.

How did France "strong-armed" these countries? If you are talking about economic interests, it'd just a tug-of-war between the US and France. It seems to me that the US'd have an upperhand.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Starchild
Or guzzling cheap swill while in the bathtub. Whatever's easier.

Ill! Excuse me when I vomit.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Cinna


Are you serious? i have a lot of friends who go to mcgill, so i've visited montreal quite a few times. the people on st. catherines you are referring to must be bums, its one of the seediest places in Canada that i know of i practically ran to the metro (very safe btw) to go back after just a few blocks on St. Caths. other than that i cant think of any other really bad place in montreal. well, except for some of the side streets off place jaques cartier. but that just makes the tourists feel uncomfortable, not really dangerous. i actually almost went to mcgill myself, but i wussed

Hah.

There's no crime on Ste Catherine. On Ontario, near Papineau, yes.

On Ste Catherine's there's always dozens of people around. Even at 4 in the morning. There are the occasional knifings on Ste-Catherines, but it's not street crime; it's spillover from clubs and bars etc.

You claim to come frome NYC and you were scared on my favourite street? Pansy.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Frogger
On Ste Catherine's there's always dozens of people around. Even at 4 in the morning.

Sounds like Mongkok here.

[Cinna]

Originally posted by Frogger


Hah.

There's no crime on Ste Catherine. On Ontario, near Papineau, yes.

On Ste Catherine's there's always dozens of people around. Even at 4 in the morning. There are the occasional knifings on Ste-Catherines, but it's not street crime; it's spillover from clubs and bars etc.

You claim to come frome NYC and you were scared on my favourite street? Pansy.

I do live in NYC, and have lived in Albuquerque -- so I know the difference between dangerous and just poor. Still, I don't enjoy walking around seedy areas while on vacation (I get enough of that at home). Besides, they took my box cutter at the airport

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Frogman
Montreal is a great city, but I am struck by this battle between french and english words on signs. I know they have to fight to keep english from overrunning the french flavor the city has, but it does point to this deeper battle the french are fighting to maintain the prominence of their culture vs american/english.

French speaking governments, and people to some extent, are fighting to keep their language alive. The French culture is nowadays very defensive, so it is more about the salvation of the identity rather than the cultural upper hand. I admit the French culture would be more agressive if it had enough power to do so.

Its more than the french being against the war. Its the apparent backing and support of Saddams military and selling us out for economic gain by trading with Iraq in spite of the sanctions.

That I can understand. It is not more amoral than the rest of Internation Relations, but it is amoral nonetheless. But hat do you mean by "selling us out" ?

The real anger comes from their unwillingness to work with us ever since the end of GW1 and their boasting about a veto even if they lost the vote on any UN mandate for force.

I think it is extremely arguable to hate the French because they didn't work with you. It is arrogant, to say the least, to expect another independent country to always go the way you want to, because France is no vassal of the US.
It was in US' interests to oust Saddam. It was in France's interests to keep him.
I admit this could have been resolved if there had been actually skilled diplomats in both countries, because the US could have simply offered France to keep its deals in postwar Iraq. But it didn't happen, and the US behaviour basically ruined every French interests in Iraq. Why should have France followed you ? Your behaviour was as destructive to our interests as our behavious towards yours, if not more.

The germans seem to get off scott free in this, but we fought them twice last century while the french were supposed to be our allies.

Again, allies doesn't mean vassals. We have a clear alliance with the US, and we'll mobilize our army and nuclear ability should our American ally be attacked, as per NATO treaty. We have no obligation to support you in agressive wars, no more than you have the obligation to support us in our agressive wars. I remember the US hadn't supported France during the Suez war in 1956, and rightly so.

This is not an easy patch. The anger against the french in the US is widespread and deep. Add this to the cultural battle the french are waging and I don't see how this rift will heal.

Widespread, no doubt. Deep, I don't know. I remember very well that my brother was very appreciated when he worked in the US, a mere two years ago. At that time, being French was pretty popular. Except for a few surrender jokes every now and then, I've noticed there was nearly no French-bashing on these boards before the Iraqi charade. I may be wrong, but I think the recent surge of hatred isn't old enough to be deep.

As for me, I say screw the french. I won't drink their wine. I am going to enjoy watching them beg for a role in Iraq. I'm sure GWB has a real vital role in mind.

Do as you feel fit. But be aware the punishment of a whole population because you disagree with their leader's policy isn't reasonable.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Originally posted by Frogman
Montreal is a great city, but I am struck by this battle between french and english words on signs. I know they have to fight to keep english from overrunning the french flavor the city has, but it does point to this deeper battle the french are fighting to maintain the prominence of their culture vs american/english.

French speaking governments, and people to some extent, are fighting to keep their language alive. The French culture is nowadays very defensive, so it is more about the salvation of the identity rather than the cultural upper hand. I admit the French culture would be more agressive if it had enough power to do so.

Sure. Tell that to those of us who grew up in a milieu in which our freedom of expression was limited in ways that the UN declared violated the charter of human rights...

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by Spiffor
But it didn't happen, and the US behaviour basically ruined every French interests in Iraq.

Yeah, now where are the French going to sell their extra missiles?