Rumsfeld is my hero too...

[dannubis]

this was just a quick search ...

On a TV documentary I say about a month ago american historians mentionned three million casualties as a very plausible number ...

And beside the number, being responsible for the deaths of over a million people, shouldn't that be an adequate warning not to make the same mistake twice ?

[GeneralTacticus]

this was just a quick search ...

On a TV documentary I say about a month ago american historians mentionned three million casualties as a very plausible number ...

Well, who were these historians, and where did they get this from? If you could find this with just a quick search, surely you can find something which supports your point better...

And beside the number, being responsible for the deaths of over a million people, shouldn't that be an adequate warning not to make the same mistake twice ?

What on earth are you saying here?

[dannubis]

i think that's rumsfeld line when someone doesn't agree with his point of view

[GeneralTacticus]

And I still don't understand it. Presumably he's referring to Saddam Hussein; what does he mean?

[dannubis]

no i was referring to the general consequences of the US's current foreign policy ...

[GeneralTacticus]

'My' foreign policy? I'm not even an American, and I certainly don't support either Bush or Howard's current foreign policy.

[dannubis]

sorry, got carried away ...
already corrected it ...

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sava
It's really not possible for us to know. I think the total estimated death toll of South East Asians from 1963-1975 is like 4 million+. And the blame is shared. Although Kissinger wanted to use the bomb on Hanoi. Good idea

IIRC this was a bluff run by the Nixon administration. It was called "The Madman" strategy, whereby Nixon would play the dangerous madman while Kissinger would pretend to intercede on behalf rationality with his "madman" boss. The idea was to gain leverage with whoever the con was being run on. In this case it was the North Vietnamese and their allies.

Those figures on Cambodia are blown way out of proportion btw. The population of Cambodia at the time was estimated to be about 8 million. Two million were estimated killed by the Khmer Rouge. Four million killed would make the bombing campaign in Cambodia the most deadly campaign in human history by killing 50% of the population of an entire country. It would also mean that the Khmer Rouge would have tied that record by again reducing the population by 50%, leaving Cambodia with a 75% mortaility rate for the war. It didn't happen.

[GeneralTacticus]

Who claimed the bombing campaign killed four million Cambodians? Sava claimed that from 1963-75, four million SE Asians were killed.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by dannubis
before the american bombardements the kmer rouge was an obscure band of "freedomfighters". The amercian governement caused the cambodian regime to collapse. This resulted in at least 3 million civilian casulties.
So I don't say the bombardements killed that many, but the consequences of Kissinger's actions have led to it...
So he isn't responsible ?

Oops, my bad, it was dannubis who claimed 3 million dead in Cambodia for everything. Blaming Kissinger for this is still an exercize in extreme overstatement. The North Vietnamese started it by using Cambodia for a road and military base. By the time the U.S. came into Cambodia 1/3 of it was occupied by the NVA and their allies. The U.S. tried to prop up the Cambodian regime so that it could resist militarily, but Sianhouk was already in the hands of the communists. Nationalist military officers led by Lon Nol staged a coup (with a green light from Washington) while Sianhouk was in China getting instructions from his masters.

Giving the U.S. all of the blame for this is more than a little absurd. Giving Kissinger all of the U.S. share of the blame magnifies him far more than he deserves.

[Sava]

In this war, there was nobody who wasn't at fault. Kissinger was just one of the more evil people involved. MacNamara was probably more at fault, but he had better intentions.

[DarthVeda]

Yay! Uncle Rummy!

[Spiffor]

Rumsfeld is a completely inept politician.

His only bonus is that he speaks his mind, unlike brighter people like Powell who follow the group's official position. He is not always right, far from it : "free people are free to make mistakes and commit crime" is a classic of stupidity, except if you consider yourself not to be free. Yeas, he was right The myth of Rumsfeld being always right comes solely from the unexpected success of his strategy in Iraq.

Before, he has managed to completely break the relations with France and Germany which resulted in their resolute NO in the UN (I'm not saying Rummy is the only cretin in this charade). With his brutal approach, he has managed to not have the big Arab countries behing him against Iraq. And he has managed to tell the world antics that please the American conservative audience, and pisses off the whole world, with all the impact on US image it has.

I highly suspect Rummy-apologists here just love the guy because he pisses "snotty European elites and intellectuals", or crap like that. It is true, Rumsfeld pisses off snotty European intellectuals. As well as regular people from Europe. As well as regular people from all around the world. As well as all responsible American politicians and citizens that understand the US cannot consistently give the world the finger without opening a period of trouble.

If you think it is Right to give the world the finger, and to tell speeches whose message wouldn't fit a 5 year old, Rumsfeld deserves to be your hero.
If you think the US should actually think before acting, you should send Rumsfeld to retirement ASAP.

[Bereta_Eder]

I think Rumsfield is a cold war relic and has fallen to serious political errours and declarations which cost him and his country in the long run.

I also think that in a twisted way he will prove to be very beneficial for the unity of the EU.

[Ned]

Spiffor, et al., Rumsfeld is not in charge of State. He is in charge of Defense. He should be judged on that.

As to the French and Germans, you are not going to get many people in the US to believe that the only reason for French and German support of Saddam is because of Rumsfeld. I think inspection of the illegal French and German arm sales to Iraq will long predate Rumsfeld.

If the French and Germans are mad at Rumsfeld denoting them as "old Europe," well, surprise, most Americans agree with Rumsfeld.

The problem you have in France and Germany is anti-Americanism. This has nothing to do with Rumsfeld.