Eight Thousand Years of Civilization ...gone

[Asher]

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Who could possibly expect the American government to actually think through what their actions will cause?

They've certainly done a far better job than the people who rallied against the American government, who have shown to be so incredibly off the mark with their predictions that it's actually pretty funny.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Asher
GePap: There are 50,000 men in Baghdad right now? What's the source for that?

Also, did the Baghdad police have to worry about:
1) Public perception -- how bad would it look for US forces to be launching tear gas and shooting at Iraqi civilians intentionally in the Arab world and in Iraq itself?
2) Militants who attack them in suicide busses and the like
3) Searching for chemical weapons and boobytraps

There is the 3rd ID, then the marines, and who knows were V corp is. We have well over 150,000 troops in Baghdad, and given the fact that it is the capitol and the center of power, I do not think it is too much to imagine that a significant portion of our forces will be within city limits.

As I said, if Iraqis themselves are arming themselves to end looting, they will understand using force to portect Iraq's national treasures.

[Asher]

Originally posted by GePap
There is the 3rd ID, then the marines, and who knows were V corp is. We have well over 150,000 troops in Baghdad, and given the fact that it is the capitol and the center of power, I do not think it is too much to imagine that a significant portion of our forces will be within city limits.

As I said, if Iraqis themselves are arming themselves to end looting, they will understand using force to portect Iraq's national treasures.

I'm really confused by your logic -- you think all those troops hung around in Baghdad?

So who's in Tikrit (Saddam's true stronghold) right now?

I'd like to see some real numbers from a real source before we continue, your numbers seem fishy and it seems to me that they're coming from nowhere but your head.

[Felch]

Originally posted by GePap

However, kicking Saddam out of power DEFINETLY justifies the destruction of some ancient artifacts.

that sir, is a dumb statement.

The US should have known, from previous experience, that once you removed the power of the Iraqi regime, a vacuum would open up in which looting and other mayhem could occur. They should have been prepared, since it IS the US's RESPONIBILITY, once it removed the previous power, to enforce law and protect the people of Iraq and its natural and national treasures. The Museum was NOT LOOTED simply cause the US removed Saddam: it was looted becuase the Us removed local poower without having any preparations for what would happen. The US was olbigated to secure places such as this, and it failed in that obligation.

The excuses put forward here are rather pitifull. The US is now the occupying power in Iraq: it has responsibilities under the law to fulfill. It is that simple. Figthing somewhere accross the city, given that the US has well over 50,000 men in that city, certainly more than the Baghdad police ever had, is no excuse. Even as the article points out, had US forcws simply moved a single piece of armor to a new and not radically different spot, some of the damage would have been mitigated.

Relax. It takes a little while to restore order anywhere. And remember, these are soldiers, not police. We want the Iraqis to police themselves, to learn to respect legitimate Iraqi authorities, not to kowtow to American conquerers.

It's a no-win situation. The American troops are trying their best. You just can't expect miracles from ordinary people.

[notyoueither]

Sad, very sad.

BTW, I believe it is widely recognised that a responsibility of a conqueror is the maintenance of minimal order. The looting of hospitals and the museum are unforgivable, for both the Iraqis themselves, as well as the occupiers.

I really doubt that the destruction of irreplaceable artifacts is going to be forgotten, or forgiven. The victors don't write history, historians do. There are bound to be more than a few historians with harsh verdicts as US forces stood by while such vandalism went on.

[Asher]

Does anyone understand why, if these relics are so important to the Iraqi people, why the museum didn't hire any security guards or volunteers to protect it?

It sounds to me like they abandoned the place and then cried when it was trashed...

[yavoon]

less vandalism more theft. tho certainly stuff got trashed

[Jaguar]

Suppose you had to choose between Iraq losing a Babylonian artifact or Sprayber losing an arm.

[Asher]

I've always been confused by man's obsession with artifacts, relics, and other pieces of the past.

Museums bore the hell out of me, I think it's pretty irrational to be so attached to some objects just because they're famous and/or old.

[Imran Siddiqui]

once you removed the power of the Iraqi regime, a vacuum would open up in which looting and other mayhem could occur. They should have been prepared, since it IS the US's RESPONIBILITY, once it removed the previous power, to enforce law and protect the people of Iraq and its natural and national treasures. The Museum was NOT LOOTED simply cause the US removed Saddam: it was looted becuase the Us removed local poower without having any preparations for what would happen. The US was olbigated to secure places such as this, and it failed in that obligation.

Oh lord.

I didn't know that the US military was THAT good that it could capture a city, and move on shortly afterwards, AND be able to totally bring order to a city. Three days after a capture of a city and we subdue all rioting? Wow... we must have those supersoldiers I heard about on X-Files .

Yes, we should have added 50,000 US troops to the Baghdad assault, and waited 3 weeks while troops were poised outside the city so that we could PREVENT LOOTING?! Or rather, after taking Baghdad, we should stick around until the looting is finished, and THEN continue the war.

And you were talking about dumb statements?

All this debate shows me is that people are willing to blame the US for everything and anything under the sun. I'm waiting for us to be blamed for the destruction of the library of Alexandria.

[Drake Tungsten]

We have well over 150,000 troops in Baghdad

I'm going to have to call shenanigans on that one. I don't think America has much more than 150,000 troops in all of Iraq, so I seriously doubt that we have that many in Baghdad.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by yavoon
less vandalism more theft. tho certainly stuff got trashed

What couldn't be carried was trashed. Vandalism.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Over the years, I have frequently condemned the senseless destruction of irreplaceable artifacts.

Point out one thread in which you have done this without a political agenda behind it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't think America has much more than 150,000 troops in all of Iraq

Yeah, wasn't MtG complaining about the few troops we had in Iraq compared to Gulf War I?

[Imran Siddiqui]

According to the New York Times website there are only 20,000 American troops (marines) in Baghdad and they are working as hard as they can to restore order (which means they have stopped fighting against Saddam's troops in other areas).