Eight Thousand Years of Civilization ...gone

[rah]

Farfetched but isn't it suspicious that the entire card catalog was destroyed. That's not the work of spur of the moment looters, that's definately pros at work.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by rah
Farfetched but isn't it suspicious that the entire card catalog was destroyed. That's not the work of spur of the moment looters, that's definately pros at work.

Yep, a normal Iraqi looter will only grab golden objects or artifacts that look really valuable anyway, the real important pieces, that are sold so specialists and private collectors and that a normal jack doesn't see as important, is stolen by professionals, there's no doubt about it, these guys know how to get those items sold, Mohammed from down the block wouldn't have those nice connections to the international black market I would think?

[chequita guevara]

According to the currator, a lot of stuff was just destroyed, but I do agree, this is looking curiouser and curioser.

[Spiffor]

From Le Monde, 13 April 2003

Les trente-deux galeries du Musée archéologique ont été mises à sac
LE MONDE | 14.04.03 | 14h00

Le musée de Bagdad a-t-il subi le même sort que le Musée de Kaboul ? Plus de 80 % des pièces de l'établissement afghan avaient été pillées après le départ des troupes soviétiques. L'essentiel de ce qui restait a été détruit plus **** par les talibans. D'après le New York Times, il aura fallu moins de 48 heures pour que les trente-deux galeries du Musée archéologique national d'Irak soient "nettoyées", sous le nez des troupes américaines. Plusieurs archéologues irakiens auraient fait des démarches auprès du commandement américain pour que le musée soit "sanctuarisé". En vain.

Le quotidien britannique The Independent insiste, dimanche, sur les destructions : statues mutilées, vitrines éventrées, objets fracassés. Les autorités irakiennes avaient pourtant prévu le pire. Dans le numéro de février 2003 de la revue Archéologia, la directrice des musées d'Irak, le Dr Nawala Mettwali, indiquait que "le personnel a suivi des sessions de formation pour évacuer les 32 salles du musée en un jour. Les objets seront mis à l'abri dans des lieux secrets." La responsable des musées, qui pleure aujourd'hui ses collections disparues, n'avait pas prévu que le personnel serait le premier à se volatiliser.

L'actuel musée de Bagdad a été inauguré en 1976. Ses collections comptaient environ 150 000 pièces, de menues tablettes d'argile gravées d'écritures cunéiformes aux puissants taureaux ailés de Khorsabad ou aux bas-reliefs des palais de Nimroud qui pèsent chacun plusieurs tonnes, l'ensemble constituant une anthologie assez complète de toutes les civilisations qui se sont succédé, depuis plus de 7000 ans, entre le Tigre et l'Euphrate : témoignages préhistoriques, vestiges sumériens, akkadiens, babyloniens, assyriens néobabyloniens, perses, grecs, parthes, sassanides, et un très riche fond islamique.

LONGUE RESTAURATION

Lors de la première guerre du Golfe, une grande partie de ces pièces avait été mise à l'abri et le musée fermé. Il avait été rouvert pour l'an 2000. De nombreux objets, qui avaient souffert de leur réclusion dans des caisses métalliques, demandaient une longue restauration qui n'était pas achevée. Les trésors les plus précieux, comme ceux qui avaient été trouvés dans les tombes royales d'Our, étaient restés dans leurs cachettes : seules leurs photos étaient exposées dans le musée de Bagdad. Ces pièces sont-elles pour autant sauvées ? A la suite de la première guerre du Golfe, neuf des treize musées régionaux avaient été plus ou moins pillés. D'après le professeur McGuire Gibson (Science, mars 2003) qui enseigne l'archéologie mésopotamienne à Chicago, 3000 pièces avaient été dérobées. De son côté, le professeur japonais Ishi avait été chargé par l'Unesco de rassembler une documentation sur les objets volés dans les musées irakiens, mais aussi sur les 10 000 sites archéologiques. Il en avait dénombré 5000. Il est à craindre que cette fois-ci, le chiffre des objets volés – ou pire, détruits – ne soit beaucoup plus élevé.

Après le pillage du Musée de Bagdad, le directeur général de l'Unesco, Koïchiro Matsuura, a fait savoir, dans un communiqué, qu'il avait "aussitôt saisi les autorités américaines et britanniques et demandé de prendre immédiatement les mesures de surveillance et de protection des sites archéologiques et institutions culturelles irakiens". A la veille de l'intervention armée, Mounir Bouchenaki, directeur adjoint de la culture à l'Unesco, avait déclaré au Monde : "Les Américains connaissent la valeur et la diversité du patrimoine irakien. Nous leur avons remis la liste des sites importants. J'espère qu'ils en feront bon usage."

I've copied the entire article for further notice (Le Monde takes it articles down after a while), so I'll just translate one short excerpt here, in answer to Ned :

"In the Feb 2003 issue of the Archéologia magazine, The director of Iraqi museums, Dr Nawala Mettwali, pointed that "the staff has followed a formation to empty the museum's 32 rooms in one day. The artifacts will be sheltered at secret locations." The director, who today mourns the lost collections, didn't foresee that the first to disappear would be the staff"

[chequita guevara]

ENGLISH!

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by gunkulator


Neither do you. Thanks for making my point. It is the Iraqi's museum, not ours. Let's ask THEM what they think.



It is a tragedy, no question. However, had Saddam spent 1/10 as much on his people instead of museums, palaces and statues, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today.



My my, the f word twice. You don't need to wage war to destroy life. Saddam is proof positive of that. Call it "handling internal problems" or something. As a denizen of a country that has been liberated by war, I wouldn't be so quick to claim "war = always bad".



and the Kurds and the Shiites and the political dissenters and the free press.



I'm not sure who you're arguing with since nobody disagrees. The question I have asked is: How many human lives is it worth expending to save them?

-No I don't live in Iraq, so what Saddam does to his own people to keep order in his country doesn't concern me, but this museum does concern me in fact. Anyway the thing is that you are missing the point, you are making an "either" question. Well let me put it this way: it's your business that you're invading Iraq, but you DO have to prevent the looting, and especially this museum, because you COULD have prevented it from being looted. It is not a question of either removing Saddam and losing the museum, or keeping the museum but keeping Saddam as well... You are asking the wrong questions here mate. You could have removed Saddam, and still have saved the museum, that's what I am so angry about.

-On you second point, we clearly disagree on the motives of this war, and I won't argue on this because it's pointless and it doesn't cencern this topic

-aha, War = Peace ey... yeah right... I never said war is always bad, ah well actually war is ALWAYS bad, but alas war cannot always be avoided, and in this case, a war was clearly not necessary at this particular time, as the US actually provoked the war, and actually invaded! Also, the Iraqi dont see their country that liberated.. It might seem strange to some of you, but what these ppl want in the first place is safety, food and a roof above their heads... at this time their life standard is worse than it was under Saddam as there is no law, clean water anymore, and a lot of homes and buildings have been destroyed

-You are waging a war to save their lives, but at the same time their market places are being bombed.. that's real fun. the shiites and Kurds have nothing to do with this. Besides the Kurds have been oppressed in Turkey as well, and nobody who gives a ****

-Your last point: none, as the library could be saved by simply posting men there to protect is, no Iraqi fool would get it in his head to loot a building guarded with troops carrying an m60 or something

[Spiffor]

Che : I am too lazy to translate in all right now. I've copied the whole article for further notice in case Le Monde puts it down. Right now, I have only translated the relevant excerpt, at the end of my previous post

[Ned]

Originally posted by Spiffor
From Le Monde, 13 April 2003



"In the Feb 2003 issue of the Archéologia magazine, The director of Iraqi museums, Dr Nawala Mettwali, pointed that "the staff has followed a formation to empty the museum's 32 rooms in one day. The artifacts will be sheltered at secret locations." The director, who today mourns the lost collections, didn't foresee that the first to disappear would be the staff"

So, they had planned to evacuate the artifacts, but couldn't because the staff fled.

But did they?

I think we really out to put the FBI on this one.

[Spiffor]

That would indeed be a smart move. This looks fishy altogether.

[Lung]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

However, kicking Saddam out of power DEFINETLY justifies the destruction of some ancient artifacts.

By accident, sure, but by blatant neglect?

If the nearby forces were busy fighting, then it would have been by accident. But seeing as they were just sitting around, neglect is flashing is big neon lights.

Kicking Saddam out of power justifies the destruction of ancient artifacts only if they were unable to stop it. After all, it's only collateral damage if it's lost inadvertently.

Of course, it's silly to blame the US when they weren't the ones doing the looting, but to not lift a finger to stop it when they easily could have, is to condone it.

This is not only a great loss for Iraq, but all of humanity. The artifacts will end up in private collections, never to see the light of day again

Imran, stop being so paranoid and let your country take responsibility for its actions Dismissing the artifacts as bunch of old plates just shows your contempt for anything not American.

[Lung]

Originally posted by Ned


So, they had planned to evacuate the artifacts, but couldn't because the staff fled.

But did they?

I think we really out to put the FBI on this one.

Well Ned, the museum's rooms were all emptied in one day and their whereabouts are definitely secret

[Drake Tungsten]

I heard something on the news a bit ago about British scholars who believed that many of the antiquities in the National Museum were actually fakes. The museum closed for several years and some believe that it was filled with replicas when it was reopened. I hope this turns out to be true.

[Lung]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I heard something on the news a bit ago about British scholars who believed that many of the antiquities in the National Museum were actually fakes. The museum closed for several years and some believe that it was filled with replicas when it was reopened. I hope this turns out to be true.

That would be poetic justice

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I heard something on the news a bit ago about British scholars who believed that many of the antiquities in the National Museum were actually fakes. The museum closed for several years and some believe that it was filled with replicas when it was reopened. I hope this turns out to be true.

all over the world muea are filled with fake items... In some cases such as old Greek figurines for example it is sometimes hard to see whether this is an authentic piece or a fake, even for experts... Also, "some believe" isn't very convincing to me

[Proteus_MST]

[cyn]
Come on, there had to be priororities.
The few US Forces which were in Bagdhad after its conquest had to guard important buildings,
such as the Ministry of Oil (which was de facto guarded by US-Troops right from the start).
Not such unimportant Buildings like Hospitals or Museums
[/cyn]