An honest question for Christians

[Bosh]

He was quoting... Isaiah, was it?

nope, psalms.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [1]
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD ;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [2] in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [3] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD , be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [4] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD , praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [5] will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him-
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD ,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn-
for he has done it.

pretty impressive writting.
Lots of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels are quotes from the OT, which makes a lot of sense.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Boshko

What things?

things relating to sacrifice

there are also things relating to health (all the unclean bits)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

other stuff, like

"when a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall do him no wrong. The stranger who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."

have not been fulfilled, nor have our technololgy made them unimportant

so even Leviticus is still needed when looking at the Bible as a whole

Jon Miller

[Bosh]

things relating to sacrifice

there are also things relating to health (all the unclean bits)

this has what to do with:

pointing to Christs birth nad death

?

[Jon Miller]

Christians claim that Christ was the sacrifice

and that the ealier sacrifices of animals and the like were fulfilled by him

I think that is a pretty standard reading of the new testament

Jon Miller
the health bit was just me remembering a different type of law given in Leviticus that many feel to be unneeded

[cinch]

Thanks, Boshko.

Lots of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels are quotes from the OT, which makes a lot of sense.

Yes, it certainly does.

Does that explain the whole "Jesus vs. The Fig Tree" thing, too?

I never got that one.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
The Old Testament God makes more sense when you are a father

Ah, yes the old "I made you; I can always make another" threat!

[Bosh]

Does that explain the whole "Jesus vs. The Fig Tree" thing, too?

I never got that one.

There's no OT-connection in that one that I'm aware of.
Some other OT-connections besides innumerable quotations are being born in Bethlehem (for the David connection) the whole strange in and out of Egypt thing (for the Moses connection) and even how the money Judas got for betraying Jesus got spent: http://members.aol.com/JAlw/potters_field_prophecy.html

Christians claim that Christ was the sacrifice

and that the ealier sacrifices of animals and the like were fulfilled by him

I think that is a pretty standard reading of the new testament

Right, there's plenty of stuff in the NT that looks back on the OT but very little that is

pointing to Christs birth nad death

[Ben Kenobi]

Sodomites are not worthy to live, because they fornicate and kill. Lot, on the other hand, a noble and God-fearing man, is held up as a pillar of excellence when he offers up his daughters to be raped by the townspeople. This seems to be a contradiction.

cinch, I didn't see anyone answer this, so I'll give this a shot.

Not just fornicate and kill. They also sodomised.

Lot has a duty to protect his guest under the house, in this case the two angels instructed to inspect Sodom, which is why he chose to act the way he did.

Lot was not held up as a pillar for his behavior, in fact by exposing his daughters, he would also have been at fault. Even God-fearing men make mistakes, look at Abraham when he lies to the Egyptians.

So no contradiction.

So does that mean that people born before the time of Christ were more inherently evil than those who are born today? Did Christ negate original sin?

No, we are still under the same original sin.

Christ is the fulfillment of the law, in that many of the pieces of the law still apply, except, as John already pointed out, the sacrificial system. Without the sacrificial system, you also have no cleanness or uncleanness as well.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Boshko

There's no OT-connection in that one that I'm aware of.
Some other OT-connections besides innumerable quotations are being born in Bethlehem (for the David connection) the whole strange in and out of Egypt thing (for the Moses connection) and even how the money Judas got for betraying Jesus got spent: http://members.aol.com/JAlw/potters_field_prophecy.html


Right, there's plenty of stuff in the NT that looks back on the OT but very little that is

actually, according to christians, all of the stuff dealing with sacrifice was pointing to Christ, I already said that, could you address that?

Jon Miller

[sprucemoose3311]

Re: An honest question for Christians

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

Before Jesus went to Jerusalem, when he was finally cruzified, he was in the desert for 40 days and he was tempted by the devil.
Now, how comes that Jesus, who is nobody else than God, part of the trinitarian union, should be subject of a temptation of "the dark side". It makes perfectly sense for a prophet or even for a "son of God", who's partially God/partially human, but not for someone who himself is the contrary of the devil...

The Trinity is a doctrine that was written to prevent Eastern churches from becoming Heretic sects. To paraphrase the trinity doctrine: Jesus is like God but he is not God.
This is a reactionary document defending the fact that Jesus was a man at every point in his life. Some churches had begun to believe that Jesus started as human, became God to preofrom miracles, then the God part of him left as he died on the cross... heresy

as for the temptation part... taking classes that look at the bible on an academic level are good.

[DarthVeda]

The devil was appealing to Jesus' human side. Kind of how Luke appealed to Darth Vader's human side...

[Alexander's Horse]

Re: Re: An honest question for Christians

Originally posted by sprucemoose3311



The Trinity is a doctrine that was written to prevent Eastern churches from becoming Heretic sects.

Really?

Evidence please.

[TheStinger]

I think I would find it easy to resists temptation when my I knew my dad was the biggest cheese in town. It would have been far more impressive for him to resist temptaion before he had a clue he was number one son.

[Alexander's Horse]

You should have a look at "The Last Temptation of Christ", a film based on the book by a Greek writer, whose name escapes me - Karantzakis (sp?).

It presents Jesus as a figure riven by self doubt and loathing for his "mission", resisting it at every step ebfore succumbing to the inevitable. Presents quite a plausible alternative view of Jesus, in some ways more satisfying than the "super confident" and always "in control" Jesus presented by the Christian churches.

Its also presents Jesus as fully human in the sense that his mission only slowly dawns upon or is thrust upon him. Contrast this with the "all knowing" Christ child.