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Is it possible for Chrétien to make up his mind?

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  • Is it possible for Chrétien to make up his mind?

    OTTAWA - Ottawa now admits that some Canadian soldiers are in Iraq, even though Canada refused to join the U.S.-led war against Saddam Hussein.

    Thirty-one Canadians are with U.S. and British troops in the Gulf as part of a military exchange, and a British army officer told CBC News that some of the Canadians are in combat.

    But the prime minister continues to deny any Canadians are directly involved in the fighting.

    For days the federal government has refused to disclose any information about the Canadian soldiers in the Gulf.

    On Thursday, Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe asked the prime minister to finally admit that having soldiers alongside coalition troops is the same thing as formally entering the war against Iraq.

    Prime Minister Chrétien says Canada isn't at war with Iraq. But he conceded that some Canadian soldiers could be with U.S. and British troops inside the country. "It's possible," he said, "but they are not in combat roles."

    But Lieut.-Col. Ronnie McCourt told CBC News, in an interview at command headquarters in Doha, Qatar, that some Canadians are on the front lines.

    "They are in combat," he said, "and there's always a risk there."

    Duceppe says five U.S. soldiers captured in Iraq were assigned to maintenance units. He says it's ludicrous to suggest that the Canadian soldiers in the region aren't involved.

    "When you are at war, you are at war. If you're in maintenance, or if you're in combat directly."

    NDP Leader Jack Layton says having even some soldiers in combat means Canada is at war, in violation of its stated policy. "They've told us that we're not involved. The House of Commons adopted a motion saying we're not to be involved. Now it's clear that we are involved. It's outrageous," he said.

    The New Democrats are demanding that Defence Minister John McCallum be held in contempt of Parliament unless he discloses where the soldiers are. McCallum has refused.

    The federal government is apparently prepared to accept the risk that some of its soldiers could be killed or captured, in a war that Canada refused to join.

    What do you think? Is Gilles Duceppe right and there is no difference between having troops in the field and formally entering the war or is Chrétien holding fast to his principles and keeping Canada out of the war?
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  • #2
    Another side to this problem is the troops currently serving on spyplanes above Iraq, as part of a joint agreement with the US signed quite some time ago.

    I guess my perspective on this issue is that Canada risks insulting the US moreso than already by pulling troops already committed out of Iraq.
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    • #3
      Chretien doesn't know what's going on. He's seriously senile and cranky.
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      • #4
        Chretien

        There is absolutely no reason to pull those troops out. They are an integral part of the units that they are deployed with and pulling them out would undermine the American war effort.

        As Chretien has stated, the Americans are our friends. We may not agree with their war, but we are not going to interfere with their freedom of action.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by obiwan18
          Another side to this problem is the troops currently serving on spyplanes above Iraq, as part of a joint agreement with the US signed quite some time ago.
          We have troops all over that region, so what? We're just honouring previous commitments we've made to other countries. I see nothing hypocritical about it, we're just keeping our word on other matters.

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          • #6
            From what I understand, it's not as if our troops are in maintenance - as the American quoted said - which would of course put them in combat. AFAIK, they are serving at CentCom in Qatar and most likely on AWACS aircraft patrolling the skies.

            Still, I don't think we should have any troops there as long as our stated position is to stay out of the conflict. I would, however, keep our naval assets in the region as part of other commitments.
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            • #7
              Actually, having people in Iraq wearing Canadian uniforms and insignia is an act of war against Iraq. I seriously doubt they are out of uniform.

              We can say we're not at war all we want, and that is exactly the colour of the sky on Jean's planet, but the fact remains that Canadian forces personnel are engaged in hostilities against Iraq. In other words, we are at war, although in a very limited fashion.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by notyoueither
                Actually, having people in Iraq wearing Canadian uniforms and insignia is an act of war against Iraq. I seriously doubt they are out of uniform.

                We can say we're not at war all we want, and that is exactly the colour of the sky on Jean's planet, but the fact remains that Canadian forces personnel are engaged in hostilities against Iraq. In other words, we are at war, although in a very limited fashion.
                If Canadian personnel are integrated with and attached to US units under pre-existing treaty or other agreements, IIRC, that does not create a state of war between Canada and Iraq, although those personnel specifically are combatants under the GC. In other words, those personnel don't have neutral party status, but there isn't a state of war between the two nations.

                Countries have had observers and staff exchange programs with each other for a long time
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                • #9
                  Honest question: Why are there exchanges?

                  Is it so countries like Canada can send soldiers to the US, and take notes of what makes their military more effective (ie, "Mental Note: their soldiers have guns")?
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                  • #10
                    I'm sure MtG can answer this more thoroughly, but basically the exchanges tend to be among allied countries (ie: NATO and PfP states) so that there can be better integration of command and control in times of conflict. Also, again among allies, standardized training means that, barring equipment differences, soldiers/officers from one country can theoretically be interchanged with those of another with a minimum of complications.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Asher
                      (ie, "Mental Note: their soldiers have guns")?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


                        If Canadian personnel are integrated with and attached to US units under pre-existing treaty or other agreements, IIRC, that does not create a state of war between Canada and Iraq, although those personnel specifically are combatants under the GC. In other words, those personnel don't have neutral party status, but there isn't a state of war between the two nations.

                        Countries have had observers and staff exchange programs with each other for a long time
                        I suppose it would depend a bit on how the Iraqis viewed it. Observers I could buy, but the Brits seem to be indicating participation in hostilities. Canadian sources are saying logistics though.

                        I think the bigger point is that the government here has been trying to hide the involvement of these soldiers. I didn't know any went with units on the ground. I would have thought they would have stayed behind on garrison, given the governments position.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by notyoueither

                          Observers I could buy, but the Brits seem to be indicating participation in hostilities. Canadian sources are saying logistics though.
                          Right, like the Brits have been extremely reliable regarding their information lately.

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                          • #14
                            Because of pre-existing agreements, soldiers from various NATO countries serve from time to time with allied divisions. MtG is correct that, as they are under US or British command Canada is not involved in the war. There are also at least two dozen Canadians with joint Canadian/American or Canadian/British citizenship serving, though I have no idea how many are deployed.

                            Chretien first mentioned this before the fighting started and at that time stated that they would probably remain with there assigned units. Although I am against the war, I respect his decision.

                            BTW - Does anyone know how many of the "coalition of the willing" partners' that the US drones on about have soldiers in the field? Any plucky Albanians or Eritreans ? ... and Canada's the villain !
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                            • #15
                              AFAIK, only the US, UK and Australia have actual combat assets in Iraq. Bulgaria and the Czech Republic (and maybe some others, not sure) have sent a couple of teams to handle possible chemical warfare scenarios, mainly decontamination. Otherwise, jack squat.

                              I don't think the US (and the CA) cares about Canada not sending troops, I think they're more up in arms that Canada hasn't said "Go USA! Invade that country!".
                              "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
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