What is Germany's hidden agenda?

[Wycoff]

Why isn't America boycotting Germany: Great cars, even better beer. Also, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of Americans are of German descent. The number for France is far less. Many people identify with Germany. Personally, I'd riot if the U.S. boycotted German beer.

[Ted Striker]

Just keep sending over the Audis schnell bitte.

[GePap]

We did rename dachshunds Liberty Dogs" during WW1...

The innitial Americans came form the UK, france's long term enemy, and until 1763 France was the great foreign enemy for the colonies. Add to this low French immigration, and viola..instant distance.

I don't think the Us and the German have been as close as you say Ted (damn Hessians!) but certainly we have much less history than with France.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by GePap
Did I say anything about integration somewhere? given the low percentage of French Immigrants this is certainly true.

Many immigrants in France become nationals after some time, and their children became nationals automatically, if they were born on the territory (it remains the only condition, but it is not automatic anymore).
There is still an Integration problem occuring now, even though "disintegrated" people are nationals.
It is very different from Germany where it is very hard to become a German national. Children of Turkish families born on German territory can now become German, but this change is very recent. This is a huge factor in the difference between immigration statistics in the 2 countries.
Edit : scratch that, I just noticed you were talking about American people from French and German descent.

See, the problem is that Americans and the French share just enough megalomanias to dislike each other for it, even if the way they express this dislike varties, as does the intensity.

Our arrogance is much superior than the Yanks'

[GePap]

Spiff.. I meant French immigrants into the US, which were very very few compared to other groups.

As for your megalomanias..the thing is, Americans have more current "evidence" for their own ones than the French, and hence more apt to act on them.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by BeBro
This is about germany´s hidden agenda! I expect some great conspiracy theories...

Well there was that attempt to set up the Franco-German Corp, apart from Nato, early in the 1990's ...

Perhaps the Germans plain just don't want to get stuck with the bill this time around? They did last time because of their "constitution" which prevented deployment of forces outside the Nato region of interest. Ergo they became the bankers so to speak.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by GePap
As for your megalomanias..the thing is, Americans have more current "evidence" for their own ones than the French, and hence more apt to act on them.

Probably, but do the Americans want to work on them ? I suppose it is a deep part of both collective identities, isn't it ?

[Kirnwaffen]

I believe that the German position is far more easily attributed to historical factors and the current political climate than any hidden agenda.

In addition to the utter destruction wrought upon their cities from both land and air, I believe that the Germans have never really separated WWII from the holocaust, something that they have been conditioned to (rightfully) abhor on a level that I don't think most foreigners would understand. While some would argue that this should lead to a willingness to depose leaders like Saddam Hussein, I would argue that the Germans are caught in a bind here. While they apall such dictators, they don't want to be responsible for what they see as the natural consequences of war, and while the consequences of leaving such a man in power may seem far worse to us, the German desire to not be responsible for that kind of suffering overpowers any other feelings they may have.

In addition, the heavy hand that Washington has exhibited in it's handling of Iraq and other issues has created an opportunity for Schroeder that he would be a (political) fool not to seize. Being accused of breaking earlier campaign promises on the domestic side, Schroeder had only one possible out in the last election: foreign policy. The behavior of the United States under the current administration is perceived by many Germans, whether they realize it or not, as Nazi-like. The German opposition to the war in Iraq is caused as much by a desire to derail what they see as a power on track to repeat some of the errors that they once committed. Hence, Schroeder now walks a line between offending a major trading party and satisfying the populace with low key opposition to US policy.

The two elements above, once combined, provide, I think, a reasonable explanation of the German position.

On another note, I would disagree that Nazi attrocities are considered more horrific because of Anglo-American myth. I would argue that the specificity of the Nazi attrocities, the cruelty, and the meticulous record keeping are what truely separate the Nazis from the Soviets, with emphasis on the record keeping.

[Kirnwaffen]

Oh, and as for the resentment towards the French:

I believe the resentment is largely directed toward the Gaullist arrogance of certain French officials currently in power, which has become the stereotype for the French because, hey, they're the ones we always hear and see in the news.

[Spiffor]

Kirnwaffen :
Your posts are clear, interesting and very hard to argue against... What are you doing in the OT ?

[GePap]

Thats how people start in the OT. Give him time...

You underestimate the powwer of the Dark Side

[Kirnwaffen]

Storm knocked out my TV for the last 5 days.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Kirnwaffen
I would argue that the specificity of the Nazi attrocities, the cruelty, and the meticulous record keeping are what truely separate the Nazis from the Soviets, with emphasis on the record keeping.

That's a possibility, but the Soviets have the Nazis beat in sheer numbers. The low estimate of Soviet peoples put to death under Stalin's reign is 25 million. Many scholars place the estimate far higher. The Nazi estimate is far fewer (betwenn 5 and 10 million). Nazi brutality is inexcusable, and we are constanly reminded of the terror of the Holocaust. However, how often are we told about the terror of the Gulag? How many movies are based on Soviet terror? Movies such as Enemy at the Gate glorify the Soviets. I think that the German people shoulder an unfair burden when it comes to mass murder. The Nazis were guilty, but so were the Soviets. Why aren't the Russians walking around with their heads down? I think that the fact that they were our allies in the war is the reason that they are not treated more harshly.

Remember, many Nazis were appalled by the Soviet atrocities they discovered in Poland. Many Poles welcomed the Nazis as liberators. Some even say that Hitler's "Final Solution" was in part encouraged by the previous actions of Stalin.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Wycoff


That's a possibility, but the Soviets have the Nazis beat in sheer numbers. The low estimate of Soviet peoples put to death under Stalin's reign is 25 million. Many scholars place the estimate far higher.

I think the larger estimates put it at around 40 million. This, however was over the period of Stalins reign - much longer than the period over which Soviets were killed during the war.

[Kirnwaffen]

While I have no doubt that the Soviets beat the Nazis hands down in numbers, my main premise is that the Nazi records show us exactly when, where, how, and how many. The Nazis provided clear, detailed documentation of every step of the process and, in many cases, their rationalizations for mass murder. To see that apparently sane human beings are capable of such crimes boggles the mind. This, I think, is the reason the Nazi case is so much more compelling. Stalin's victims, for the most part, simply disappeared, and the documents his regime kept provide little evidence of their fate. Because of this lack of documentation, questions can be raised about the motives of those carrying out Stalin's orders (Were they under threat?, Were they mislead?, etc.), wheras we know that the Nazis, down to the lowest camp guard, believed firmly in the 'Final Solution'.