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**Drake Tungsten** · March 23, 2003, 01:27

I don't think Germany has a hidden agenda. They are probably the most pacifistic nation on Earth, along with Japan, so I think that their opposition to the war is mainly a result of this deep-seated value. America can hardly complain about the Germans being pacifists; we were the ones who broke them and made them this way...

**Dis** · March 23, 2003, 04:00

and why are they so pacifist?

Because they were conquered and occupied by the U.S. (with a little help from the soviet union of course

)

more reason to conquer and occupy Iraq

**Ted Striker** · March 23, 2003, 04:02

Originally posted by DarthVeda
Schroeder is blaming his poor leadership on the first thing that comes along... this just happened to be it

Pretty much sums it up.

**PLATO** · March 23, 2003, 04:05

Originally posted by Ted Striker

Pretty much sums it up.

**Proteus_MST** · March 23, 2003, 04:49

Originally posted by Dissident
and why are they so pacifist?

Because they were conquered and occupied by the U.S. (with a little help from the soviet union of course

)

It is more because we have seen what war can do to people, not only to soldiers but also to civilians.

Our Parents and Grandparent (as long as they have survived the war) can tell stories of the cruelties of war.
For example the Mass Bombardment of german Cities, like Hamburg and especially Dresden, where allied Bombers intentionally bombed residential Areas.
First fragmentary bombs to take off the roofing tiles, then incendiary Bombs to ignite the wooden roof Framing underneath.

A lot of civilians lost their lives in this flame hell.

Maybe you would also think different about war if you had experienced those things (or at least had surviving relatives to tell you about it)

**Drake Tungsten** · March 23, 2003, 04:53

It is more because we have seen what war can do to people, not only to soldiers but also to civilians.

Why aren't the British, French and Russian pacifists then?

**notyoueither** · March 23, 2003, 04:57

Would most Germans today be happy with the result if the US had not been prepared to fight either a conventional or a nuclear war with the Soviets over the fate of Western Europe?

It is not hard to have high minded principles when you are no longer hauling the freight.

**Dis** · March 23, 2003, 04:58

don't forget the U.S. went through a civil war that was very bloody and in cases like Sherman did affect the civilian population.

Yet the U.S. did not learn their lesson. Well they did for a while. I can't think of any major conflicts the U.S. was in until the Spanish-American war. But they were heavily involved in Native American conflicts in between those two wars. So you can say that the America was just as violent as ever.

**Ted Striker** · March 23, 2003, 05:05

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

It is more because we have seen what war can do to people, not only to soldiers but also to civilians.

Why aren't the British, French and Russian pacifists then?

British are solid and good guys.

Frenchie just likes to argue.

Cossack doesn't place much value on human life.

**Kramerman** · March 23, 2003, 05:44

Originally posted by Proteus_MST

It is more because we have seen what war can do to people, not only to soldiers but also to civilians.

Our Parents and Grandparent (as long as they have survived the war) can tell stories of the cruelties of war.
For example the Mass Bombardment of german Cities, like Hamburg and especially Dresden, where allied Bombers intentionally bombed residential Areas.
First fragmentary bombs to take off the roofing tiles, then incendiary Bombs to ignite the wooden roof Framing underneath.

A lot of civilians lost their lives in this flame hell.

Maybe you would also think different about war if you had experienced those things (or at least had surviving relatives to tell you about it)

The jews were probably the hardest hit by WWII, and yet Israel is a staunch supporter of this war...

Perhaps its because mass carpet bombing isnt how this war is being fought, and civilian casualties are being avoided at very high costs.

**Proteus_MST** · March 23, 2003, 05:57

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

It is more because we have seen what war can do to people, not only to soldiers but also to civilians.

Why aren't the British, French and Russian pacifists then?

If you look at the polls you will see that most of the people in those above mentioned countries are against the war in Iraq.

In GB it could be also be the reasons Tony Blair won´t get reelected, because he chose to join the coalition of the willing against the will of the british people.

This is the big difference to america where the war now seems to be backed by 75% of the people, if you believe the polls (but still also America has the largest Demonstrations against the war since vietnam)

**Drake Tungsten** · March 23, 2003, 05:59

If you look at the polls you will see that most of the people in those above mentioned countries are against the war in Iraq.

That doesn't mean they are pacifist...

**notyoueither** · March 23, 2003, 06:00

Answer this one, please?

Would most Germans today be happy with the result if the US had not been prepared to fight either a conventional or a nuclear war with the Soviets over the fate of Western Europe?

**HershOstropoler** · March 23, 2003, 06:03

Funny... I seem to remember that the germans were prepared to fight such a defensive war since 1956?

I also seem to remember that the US did not start a pre-emptive war against the USSR...

**Dis** · March 23, 2003, 06:04

attacking the Soviet Union would have been suicidal. I don't think I need to explain that.

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