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Does EU need Military Power?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
    A multipolar world order is inherently unstable and dangerous. Those of you who ***** about a unipolar American-led world might want to think about the consequences of bringing great power conflict back to the fore in international relations. It usually isn't pretty...
    Quite right.

    I suggest that the US step aside and let Europe take over, in the interest of peace of course.
    One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Proteus_MST


      On the other hand the truely bad thing with unilateral Power is:

      If in this most powerful state a president is elected who misuses those powers against the other states in the world to gather more influence, power or wealth for his own state, there is no other state capable to stop him.
      In a mulipolar world if this same president would be kept at bay by the other powers.
      Perhaps. The world hasn't really ever seen times like today's unipolar situation before. During the Cold War, "keeping the other side at bay" meant things like overthrowing democratically elected states to install puppet dicatators. I'm not sure this was such a great thing. Before that, the great powers would just go in, kill the local chiefs and install a royal governor.

      Let me pose it as a question: Is the world better off now that the Cold War is ended?

      So it seems also very risky to me to have only one state and (as a citizens of those states which are not so powerful) I´d rather take the risk of a divided world, than the risk to be some day oppressed by a single powerful state.
      Interestingly, the position you advocate parallels exactly the position of the gun lobby here in the US, i.e. I need a gun because the gov't has guns and may one day become oppressive.

      The answer to both is to question the reality of the alleged oppression. How oppressed are you really and how much of it is just contrariness or spouting rhetoric? Feel free to compare your oppression with the oppression from another time period.

      Comment

      • #63
        I suggest that the US step aside and let Europe take over, in the interest of peace of course.


        You guys already had your chance and we're still paying the price for it...
        KH FOR OWNER!
        ASHER FOR CEO!!
        GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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        • #64
          There can't be a European army. It would only serve the interests of the Franco-German "alliance".

          UK-Spain-Italy-Portugal-New Europe(Poland, Czech Republic etc) could not tolerate this attempt to be the "leader" in such a venture.

          I can imagine a European army with France-Germany-Benelux states together but the rest of Europe refusing to cooperate with it....even threatened by it.
          I love PEPSI! (twitching and shivering profusely)

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          • #65
            Howard!
            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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            • #66
              Originally posted by HershOstropoler
              Howard!
              Explain?
              I love PEPSI! (twitching and shivering profusely)

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              • #67
                "We will burry you!"
                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                • #68
                  *bury! And i doubt it!
                  I love PEPSI! (twitching and shivering profusely)

                  Comment

                  • #69
                    Just reminded me too much of Krushzev (or however he's spelled in english).
                    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                      I suggest that the US step aside and let Europe take over, in the interest of peace of course.


                      You guys already had your chance and we're still paying the price for it...
                      OK then, let Australia or Canada have a go. They've been waiting ever so patiently.
                      One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                      Comment

                      • #71
                        The USA: we won't bury you.
                        Long time member @ Apolyton
                        Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by gunkulator

                          Perhaps. The world hasn't really ever seen times like today's unipolar situation before. During the Cold War, "keeping the other side at bay" meant things like overthrowing democratically elected states to install puppet dicatators. I'm not sure this was such a great thing. Before that, the great powers would just go in, kill the local chiefs and install a royal governor.

                          Let me pose it as a question: Is the world better off now that the Cold War is ended?
                          I don´t know if it is better now.
                          But at least with the end of the cold war a lot of things come into the light, a lot of failures which have been made by the USA and the USSR (if I remember correctly one of those failures led to the Destruction of the Twin Towers).


                          Originally posted by gunkulator

                          Interestingly, the position you advocate parallels exactly the position of the gun lobby here in the US, i.e. I need a gun because the gov't has guns and may one day become oppressive.

                          The answer to both is to question the reality of the alleged oppression. How oppressed are you really and how much of it is just contrariness or spouting rhetoric? Feel free to compare your oppression with the oppression from another time period.

                          There is one Difference though.
                          The Government your Gun Lobby obviously fears is elected by your own people. with other words, the people have a certain influence to decide who governs them (for good as well as for bad). They even could become Politicians to change the way the government behaves.
                          If on the other hand my country one day gets invaded by the prime Superpower (because there is no other country powerful enough to keep it at bay) I wouldn´t have any influence on this. It would be a government in whose election I wouldn´t have any Influence and whose behaviour I couldn´t influence.

                          Lets assume someone would one day propose the Idea of a World Government which is elected by all the people of the world, governs the world and has an own army (whereas all the countries of the world wouldn´t be more than countys and would justb have Police forces at their disposal, but no standing armies anymore).
                          I would be one of the Proponents of such a world government. Why?
                          Because I would have the feeling that I could have an influence over the government either by electing the party or president which best suits my taste, or by becoming a politician.
                          In this case we would also have an unipolar Superpower, but one in which I could actively participate and in which I would have an (albeit small) influence.
                          That´s one thing I don´t have with the USA being unipolar Siuperpower (and this is the reason why so many people outside the USA are scared by a President who has the Policy of "America first" )
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                          • #73
                            OK then, let Australia or Canada have a go. They've been waiting ever so patiently.
                            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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                            • #74
                              OK then, let Australia or Canada have a go. They've been waiting ever so patiently.


                              I'm fine with letting the Aussies have a go; they seem like good people. I don't trust the Canucks, however; too many Frogs up there...
                              KH FOR OWNER!
                              ASHER FOR CEO!!
                              GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                              • #75
                                And the Kiwis can be the Aussie's lap dog substitute for international diplomacy.
                                One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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