Now that war is assured...

[rah]

Originally posted by Dissident
why is this thread not closed, but lincoln's thread was?

From my post earlier in this thread

Originally posted by rah
Keep it to a civil discussion, or it's toast.

RAH

I've already closed one similiar one this morning and won't need much of an excuse to do the same here.

Lincoln's tone started much harsher. I was still going to close this one also, but I thought I'd give it a chance and just issued a warning. With just a few exceptions, there has actually been some coherent discussions here so I'm glad I didn't toast it. In the coming week, I (and the other mods) anticipate having to make a considerable amount of similar judgement calls. I'm sure we won't be perfect, but we'll try our best. Everyone's cooperation will be appreciated. And lack of it will be appreciated differently.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
WTF is Canada doing to help anyone, besides themselves?

I always knew MikeH seemed like a nice guy. Thought he was from the other side of the Atlantic, though.

[KrazyHorse]

And I was betting on a thread closure at 8:20 a.m. EST.

WTF?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ming
Sava... you should read my earlier posts...

Forgive me, I'm generally retarded... I read your posts but my question still stands.

So Ming, if sanctions aren't working, why have them?

Well? I agree the sanctions are in place because of Saddam. Their presence is his fault. Now why keep them when its obvious the people are the ones suffering?

Rah, Ming, MtG: you guys are doing great in your "judgement" calls so far... keep up the good work. And even though this thread started out bad, somewhat intelligent discussions have taken place.

[oberstein]

Commons debate still going on here in the UK, 3 ministers resigned (1 moderately serious, 2 junior ministers probably sacrificing their political careers).

---

It is senseless to talk of 'fault' in war. Saddam Hussein is a very unpleasant man and a terrible leader for the Iraqis. He is motivated solely by the desire to preserve his own power base and that of his family. He has no respect for the international community, believing (as do all dictators) that so long as he has the military power to enforce his will, others will do as they're told. He and his administration absolutely believe that they are in the right, blinded by megalomania and ideology.

---

George W. Bush is an affable man and a mixed leader for the United States. He is motivated principally by the desire to 'do a good job' and to preserve the United States position in the world, and his and his family's poistion at the top. He is frustrated that the International Community hasn't done what he wanted it to, and he and his administration believe that (a) overwhelming military force should mean that others listen to them and (b) that their ideology (free markets, agressive foreign policy, christianity and controlled democracy) .

---

Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz are just plain scary

---

For the first time, two modern western democracies are poised to invade another country so as to effect a coup d'etat. The damage WE have done to the U.N and to NATO may never be repaired, fatally weakening the west's position in the world, which is good news for China and Russia and bad news for us. I find it very offensive to our intelligence that the UK and US governments insist that it's all the French's fault - they might be bloody-minded, but there was a majority against war which is why we never went for a 2nd resolution.

In short, our governments have lied to us, repeatedly, again and again. They have drawn false parallels between now and 1930s Europe (Germany INVADED her neighbours and demanded territory, Saddam is in no position to do either). There is a time and a place for the use of force against tyrants, but don't claim that the U.N failed because of others. It was OUR demand for war that weakened the U.N.
---

And it's on all our shoulders that responsibility for the deaths will fall; US/Iraqi/Kurd/British.....and all those that will result from instability in the region and terrorism at home.

[Verto]

Originally posted by oberstein

I find it very offensive to our intelligence that the UK and US governments insist that it's all the French's fault - they might be bloody-minded, but there was a majority against war which is why we never went for a 2nd resolution.

Perhaps it was because of France rejecting proposals before they'd even been made..

[OneFootInTheGrave]

thank you oberstein... plus the will to go to war and to blind up the people is such that even obvious lies for whom governments would be resigning in different times are now just a part of the job to convince the people...

we the people are taken as nonexistant... ignoring and plain lying repeatedly to us without consequences for their chairs shows us that at the beginning of 21st century our democratic system is slowly failing us.

[Spiffor]

Oberstein :
You wouldn't imagine how many posters here, including very bright people, still believe the comparison with the 1930's. IMO, it comes from the Americans knowing the outside world mostly through WW2 (when we talk about history, Americans talk about WW2 more than anybody else), and it has affected their understanding. The peace proposals of France, whatever ill-motivated, have been dubbed "appeasement" by many people. Saddam has been compared to Hitler, and people seemed to really believe it.
The government's lies have worked very well.

[rah]

The peace proposals of France have been motivated by self interest. Not some High minded moral code. If you believe otherwise, you're the one that's the victim of propaganda.

RAH
And yes, the same could be said about the US proposals too.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by rah

The peace proposals of France have been motivated by self interest. Not some High minded moral code. If you believe otherwise, you're the one that's the victim of propaganda.

Who said the opposite ?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

saying that France is not acting in self interest is totally true.. however this time by luck or whatever they are the right side of the fence... however the US and UK just breaking up what they predcessors have been building for the past 50 years backed up by consistent lying is certainly a sad state of affairs.

I guess we are just experiencing a bad spell in a democratic process

[rah]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Who said the opposite ?

Apon a quick review of this and a few other thread, you are correct, you never said the opposite. My apologies. You are not a victim of propaganda.

RAH

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by rah

The peace proposals of France have been motivated by self interest. Not some High minded moral code. If you believe otherwise, you're the one that's the victim of propaganda.

RAH
And yes, the same could be said about the US proposals too.

Two over-patriotic and arrogant nations on collission course. But this time, a majority of the world is supporting the French view.

[DaShi]

What happened?

[MrFun]

I am worried about United States' position in today's world.

On 9/11 we lost 3,000 lives from terrorist attacks. Yet, in the past decades, Latin American countries and SE Asian countries have losted hundreds of thousands of lives from terrorist attacks. Some of these terrorist groups were trained by the CIA and the School of America.

So we wonder why post-9/11 sympathy had long runned thin.

And we're doing a great job in antagonizing our allies with our drum-beatings over upcoming war against Iraq. Yes, France has its own selfish interests in trying to prevent war against Iraq, but United States is also guilty of providing chemical weapons to Saddam Hueissen. After all, this is one of the dictators who was allied with the United States. In the past, United States has propped up dictatorships all across the world.

No one can predict how the chain of events will unfold, but I am sincerely worried about my country and our position in today's world.

The United States needs to stop sponsoring dictatorships in this world, and the United States needs to abolish all programs that train terrorist groups in other countries. I think these are the two main reasons why so many other countries are alienated by our actions