Now that war is assured...

[Jac de Molay]

Then why haven't the kurds in the north suffered to the same degree? Hmmm.. Maybe it's the leader that is the difference.

Not entirely true. Northern Iraq has a much more porous border to begin with . They've also been receiving currency assistance as well as commodity assistance. And even though the population comprises 15% of the country, they have almost 30% of the region's most arable land.

[rah]

Don't get me wrong. I realize it's not a case of totally black and white. Both issues are to blame. But people that believe it's all sanctions and keep spouting it, are usually motivated by a bias.

[SlowwHand]

Show me 2 links.

One, that shows the U.N. and/or USA has killed 500,000 Iraqi children.

Two, that shows "official U.N. estimate" that states 500,000 civilians will die.


One stipulation.
If it's a site/estimate endorsed by France, don't waste your time.

[DaShi]

Well those countries that most vocally spoke out against sanctions are those that would benefit the most from removing them.

[Bereta_Eder]

Biased are people who think it's all sadam.

Sloww. search and thou shalt find.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by rah
Don't get me wrong. I realize it's not a case of totally black and white. Both issues are to blame. But people that believe it's all sanctions and keep spouting it, are usually motivated by a bias.

nothing is black and white so why should that be Rah?

[SlowwHand]

No. Run your mouth, and show.

[Ming]

Well there is one thing said in this thread that I can agree with it...

That it will probably be toast shortly.

paiktis22... If you continue with you trolling with an intent to start a flame war, you will be toast as well.
You have been warned in the past, and you won't be warned again... just restricted.

[rah]

Originally posted by paiktis22
nothing is black and white so why should that be Rah?

You seem to think so. I know that some of the medicine decisions (whether allowed or not) caused some damage. I didn't agree with them. But was that responsible for all 500,000 that you claim? If the money had gone to help the people instead of building palaces and rearming the military would that many have died?

[SlowwHand]

Here are some documented facts for comparison.


Hiroshima: about 138,890.
Nagasaki: about 48,857

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml

Read about Hussein here.
It's as good as any, and at least I provide reference.

http://www.iraq.net/erica/news-e/archives/00001146.htm

[MOBIUS]

...we can start to count the cost of the US' bungling ineptitude at diplomacy...

If not in civilian deaths, then certainly international relations...

It is the manner in which this whole desire for war has been prosecuted that has caused this whole mess in the first place - the US has finally got its wish (with the help of France) and dragged the UK in with it.

If the US had sincerely gone the UN route in the first place it might have got its wish for war legitimately - instead it has nakedly been in favour of war from the beginning, thus setting most neutral states against it also...

France isn't much better as threatening to veto the final benchmarks unconditionally would have been to let Saddam off the hook.

What I am most pissed about is that there was no 2nd resolution - I don't care if France were going to veto as it would have been an unreasonable attitude. What I do care about is that Blair pinned all his efforts on the backing of a 2nd resolution and by chickening out, he has lost the possibility of the vote of a moral majority...

Now, all of us have to get behind our troops and wish them the best! We must also hope that civilian casualties are kept to a minimum and that the rebuilding process does not become a puppet government clusterf*ck...

Once the dust has settled, the Bush administration really does have to get back to the drawing board when it comes to diplomacy skills because frankly they are a bunch of imbecilic clowns!

[SlowwHand]

[GePap]

I say, let this thread be toast: it is amazing, the level of hatred and mistrust so many of the pro-war side have for the anti-war side (and vice versa) that two different posters would come out and say :"hey look they want iraqis to die so they can hate us more".

It is a disgracefull and deeply insulting comment, which in my view speaks volumes about the ones making it far more than those it is directed against.

I am deeply against this war because I think it is a mistake, an act of deep arrogance based on faulty notions about the world and the peope who live in it. I also hope that very few people die as a result of it and the aftermath.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Here are some documented facts for comparison.

Hiroshima: about 138,890.
Nagasaki: about 48,857
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml

Way to go Sloww, back up the US's hunt for WMD with accounts of the US's own use of WMD...

What a 'smart' way to argue your corner...

Read about Hussein here.
It's as good as any, and at least I provide reference.

http://www.iraq.net/erica/news-e/archives/00001146.htm

D'Oh!

Check it out Sloww, Saddam was a US friend until 1990 - they knew about the 100,000 plus Kurds that Saddam murdered, including the use of WMD. Did they lift a finger then???

NO - because the US does not care about the lives of Iraqi civilians, as is borne out by the hundreds of thousands that died during the sanctions...

So don't give me any moral BS about kicking Saddam out - because that is patently not on the US agenda!

As I have said time again - I am not against the ultimate use of force, just that a clear and due process needed to be followed such as allowing the weapons inspectors to finish their work...

[Ming]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
NO - because the US does not care about the lives of Iraqi civilians, as is borne out by the hundreds of thousands that died during the sanctions...

Hmmm... and those sanctions were put in place why?

Oh... that's right, because Sadam didn't live by the agreements he made when he surrendered...
Some people might think that he is the one responsible for his peoples problems and that maybe he doesn't care what happens to them...