The criminalization of opinion in Britain.

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Originally posted by paiktis22


Of course there is.
So in Britain a man can be arrested based on what he believes and remain in her majesty's pleasure (???) then taken to trial and face a 10 year imprisonment. Is that what you're saying here?

In Her Majesty's pleasure = euphemism for staying in jail.

And yes, that is what I am saying. Take Osama Bin Laden for example, he clearly believes that his role in life is to destroy Western society. He propagates his beliefs by the spreading of videotapes and books/pamphlets. He has afaik never actually taken up arms himself against the US (he has congratulated the people that have, but never personally claimed credit), so if he were to be arrested, he would be arrested on the basis of his beliefs and the spreading of said beliefs.

I realise that this is more than likely to be an exageration of the guy were talking about now, but by your reasoning you would not arrest Osama as he's only expressing his beliefs, and maybe helping them out a bit with some cash.

[Velociryx]

Some Democracy Greece is! Did you know they passed a law there that made it illegal to play computer games! Imagine, being able to be arrested for playing "subversive" games....

-=Vel=-

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Where is the problem?

The problem is of course a major democratic deficit in your antiterrorism laws which create a wide space for prosecution of opinion, unless in your political culture, that's ok. And that Britain is not a democracy. Not in the real meaning of the word and not like most of the european ones since expression of opinion can be prosecuted with such ease.

[Arrian]

Paiktis, as usual, has no intention of being reasonable. He saw a chance to bash Britain and jumped on it, with little regard to facts.

Why do I say little regard to facts? Simple. The TRIAL HASN'T EVEN BEGUN YET. So what do we (including Paiktis) really know about this case? Zip. Zilch. Nada.

-Arrian

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by paiktis22


And that is that his opinions do not please the crown?

And since your "laws" allow that how can your police be prosecuted for wrongful arrest? Since it seems that having an opinion and some books are enough for a "legal" (in Britain) arrest?

Was the man who wrote 1984 british BTW?

Nope... no one is talking about opinion... its all about MATERIAL posessions and actions.

A judge has found that there is enough material evidence to hold the defendant.

The British judicial system is the standard throughout most of the world.

you used the term "laws", but the word doesn't need quotes... Laws are real, actual and definitive entities.

Having an opinion isn't enough to be arrested in the UK. Everyone has an opinion about SOMETHING... but not everyone has been arrested. Similarly, most people in the UK own at least one book... but not everyone has been arrested just for that either.

[TheStinger]

Have you ever been to Britain, do you know how wide the spectrum of mainstream political life is. Its huge.

There are IRA apologists in parliament, cripto facists running some newspaper, troskyites sitting on the labour party ruling council. The assertion that you are prosecuted for an opinion in Britain is one the stupidest things that can be said.

[Bereta_Eder]

Arrian we haven't even gotten to the trial in our discussion yet.

We are still talking about an arrest which is undemocratic and vastly suspicious since it is based on nothing other than the "crowns" displeasure at a young man's opinion as it seems.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by paiktis22


The problem is of course a major democratic deficit in your antiterrorism laws which create a wide space for prosecution of opinion, unless in your political culture, that's ok. And that Britain is not a democracy. Not in the real meaning of the word and not like most of the european ones since expression of opinion can be prosecuted with such ease.

Prosecution - yes, conviction and imprisonment - not necessarily.

Erm, Paiktis - you don't happen to know this guy personally do you?

[Jack the Bodiless]

Paitikis:

Are you entirely unfamiliar with how the law works in ANY democratic country?

(...Except maybe Greece, I'm beginning to wonder about that...)

People can be arrested if there are reasons to suspect that they MAY have committed a crime (and the police can be sued for wrongful arrest if there were no reasons).

Then a TRIAL takes place to determine whether they are innocent or guilty. If there is insufficient evidence to establish guilt, they are RELEASED.

If found GUILTY of a CRIME, they go to prison.

...What happens in Greece?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by TheStinger
Have you ever been to Britain, do you know how wide the spectrum of mainstream political life is. Its huge.

Twice.

There are IRA apologists in parliament, cripto facists running some newspaper, troskyites sitting on the labour party ruling council. The assertion that you are prosecuted for an opinion in Britain is one the stupidest things that can be said.

Yet this is not only what is happening but is also perfectly ok based on your political culture as you yourself have said.

[TheStinger]

Whatever else you may say about him he can get a raction 80+ posts in no time. Not taht he is in any way a troll oh no

[Demerzel]

Originally posted by paiktis22


So books expressing opinions are deemed "dangerous" and must be stopped in the British "democracy"?

sheesh, of course we don't think that all books expressing opinions are dangerous. Oh look Salman Rushdie lives here and we've arrested him for his horrendous trend of writing opinionated books, haven't we? Or the other thousands of writers? You are absurdly over-generalising to try to score a point in your crusade again the British govt.

If the articles ( which may or may not include books ) were deemed to faciliate criminal acts then only then will they be deemed "dangerous" and worthy of investigation.

Why don't you wait and see what comes on Tueday before starting yet another thread on the evil injustice of British law. If he is as innocent as you say, he'll be released.

[Bereta_Eder]

Let's recapitulate.

A 25 year old student was arrested in Britain because he had books decribing the acts of militant groups in Europe.


He also happened to have publicly say that 17N is not a terrorist group.


These 2 things were enough under british "law" to have him arrested and that is perfectly OK and democratic according to the British established order?

And you think that's not a criminalization of thought?

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Accused of having an opinion != Being accused of possessing articles which may be used in connection with the instigation, preparation or commission of an act of terrorism. There's a difference between having an opinion and planning to do something about it.

[MrBaggins]

Spain... is another Parliamentary Monarchy in Europe... for example. A 'Democracy' isn't actually a government form. A constitutional republic would be the closest thing to a 'democracy' as you see and there are relatively few of those in the world.