Ayn Rand

[Berzerker]

RB -

Many doctors and hospitals could and did turn away anyone who couldn´t pay. Charity hospitals were, as often as not, a place to die that was slightly cleaner and warmer than the street. Poor houses and the like had a miserable reputation.

Proof? The state of medicine was rather poor, so it's not like the rich were being cured of diseases that killed the poor. Yes, there have been cases of infections killing people that didn't need to die, but that wasn't because the poor were turned away from care, but more because they couldn't get to the care due to geography. Once someone had a deadly disease, the issue ceased being a cure, but where they'd die. You point to where they died, not to any proof they were refused care. I"m sure I can point to people who died under socialised systems too...

There is a big difference between a sales tax on a luxury good and an income tax that is always confiscated from you. If you have to raise money, the former is much less coercive.

Doesn't matter to me how and when I'm coerced to pay a tax, only that I had to pay the tax or face prison or death should I refuse to cooperate. You said it was wrong to coerce you to pay for the stupidity of an addict who ends up in a hospital, but then you advocate doing exactly that to others and try to justify the double standard by claiming you aren't using as much coercion. Well la-de-da

[Ben Kenobi]

Berzerker:

Are works necessary for salvation?

Read Romans, since my argument will be the same.

1. We are all sinners and fall short of the Law.

Luke 13-1:5

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

2. God still loves us even though we sin.

Mark 10:26-27

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Luke 1:15

Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

So then how can we receive God's grace?

Mark 10:15

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Matthew 10:32-33

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

There are many more passages, but these are the best.

[Berzerker]

Obiwan - You're still ignoring my question, if "love" automatically translated into good works, why did Jesus instruct people how to act rather than give one simple instruction - love?

Read Romans, since my argument will be the same.

Sorry, I asked for a quote from Jesus, not Paul.

1. We are all sinners and fall short of the Law.

Which doesn't mean works are irrelevant.

Luke 13-1:5

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

What does repentance for sins have to do with works? You said works don't matter, this passage says we must repent.

Mark 10:26-27

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Does this mean God ignores our deeds or does it mean God is the source of our salvation?

Luke 1:15

Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

Then Jesus told them this parable: "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

So then how can we receive God's grace?

You still aren't providing a quote from Jesus saying our deeds are meaningless.

Mark 10:15

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

*sigh*

Matthew 10:32-33

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

And?

There are many more passages, but these are the best.

So you have no quote from Jesus explaining that works are irrelevant.

[Ben Kenobi]

Which doesn't mean works are irrelevant.

Suppose works got you into heaven, in adhering to the principles of the Mosaic Law. Now, is it possible for someone to follow all of the laws perfectly? No. Now, if the Law were the standard, than no one could possibly be saved since everyone has fallen short.

It would no longer matter how many other good works you did, you could never make up for the faults and sins you have already committed.

In this sense, if works are what counts, then we are all condemned.

if "love" automatically translated into good works, why did Jesus instruct people how to act rather than give one simple instruction - love?

That's essentially what Christ's message comes down to:

"Love the Lord your God, with all you heart, soul, mind and strength.

and Love your neighbour as yourself."

The specific commands help people to see what should be done, how to apply this principle to real life.

What does repentance for sins have to do with works?

Good question. What does repentence mean? Repentence means confessing the wrongs that you have done, and confessing that Christ, as Lord has forgiven your sins on the cross.

This is the meaning of the quote I provided, that all who profess faith in Christ, will have Christ testify for them later on. They will be saved for their faith.

Does this mean God ignores our deeds or does it mean God is the source of our salvation?

This means that God is the source of our salvation.
What can we possibly give back to God what he does not already possess? For this reason, our works are irrelevant to our salvation.

You still aren't providing a quote from Jesus saying our deeds are meaningless.

Now I must ask, what do you mean by meaningless? For our salvation?

[Berzerker]

Obiwan -

Suppose works got you into heaven, in adhering to the principles of the Mosaic Law. Now, is it possible for someone to follow all of the laws perfectly? No. Now, if the Law were the standard, than no one could possibly be saved since everyone has fallen short.

We're supposedly born sinners. Your take on it would mean the most saintly people that have ever existed are not saved if they never heard of Jesus. I don't accept that...

It would no longer matter how many other good works you did, you could never make up for the faults and sins you have already committed.

I'm not suggesting works alone are a ticket to Heaven, only that they do matter. How do people who've never heard of Jesus get to Heaven? Works? It can't be faith...

In this sense, if works are what counts, then we are all condemned.

Only if God places more value on the law than works.

That's essentially what Christ's message comes down to:

"Love the Lord your God, with all you heart, soul, mind and strength.

and Love your neighbour as yourself."

The specific commands help people to see what should be done, how to apply this principle to real life.

But that wasn't his entire message, he said many, many things about how to act.

Good question. What does repentence mean? Repentence means confessing the wrongs that you have done, and confessing that Christ, as Lord has forgiven your sins on the cross.

Right, so repentance is not about works/good deeds.

This is the meaning of the quote I provided, that all who profess faith in Christ, will have Christ testify for them later on. They will be saved for their faith.

But if your deeds are in conflict with Jesus' teachings, your faith won't matter. As Jesus said, there will be many who come to him on Judgement Day saying, Lord, look what we have done in your name. And Jesus, turning his back on them will say, I never knew you. Jesus is talking about people who do have faith but acted wrongly.

This means that God is the source of our salvation.
What can we possibly give back to God what he does not already possess? For this reason, our works are irrelevant to our salvation.

So that passage says nothing about the alleged irrelevancy of works. Our works are how we show ourselves worthy.

Now I must ask, what do you mean by meaningless? For our salvation?

Yes.

I try to look at logically, what would impress you more if you were God - a man who believes in the absence of evidence (faith) or a man who doesn't know but lives a moral life just for the sake of being moral? I've heard Christians claim even Hitler would be saved if he repented before committing suicide while his Jewish, non-Christian victims rae not saved. I can't buy that, works matter.

[Frogman]

Jesus said, you gotta love people, you gotta forgive people, you gotta help people. That sounds like a lotta work to me.

[Ben Kenobi]

Berzerker:

Some really good points here.

But that wasn't his entire message, he said many, many things about how to act.

You are right that he gave many commandments, but they all come back to these two.

Matt 22:36-40

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied:
" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

But if your deeds are in conflict with Jesus' teachings, your faith won't matter. As Jesus said, there will be many who come to him on Judgement Day saying, Lord, look what we have done in your name. And Jesus, turning his back on them will say, I never knew you. Jesus is talking about people who do have faith but acted wrongly.

Not quite. The passage in question:

Matt 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The key part of the passage is that these people did the works. They had miracles, they prophesied. However, what they did not do was the work of the Father. One must first accept that Jesus is the Son of God before one can know what the Father wants.

There is no dichotomy between Faith and Works. Those who truly believe that Christ is Lord will do the works, out of love, not to earn salvation. However, Faith must come first.

Your take on it would mean the most saintly people that have ever existed are not saved if they never heard of Jesus. I don't accept that...

I've condensed your other points, since we are touching on a pretty deep issue, when you mention the word "heard".

I think that we have established that if one hears the Gospels and rejects them, that person would not be saved, regardless of the good works they have done. If someone hears the Gospels and accepts them, they would be saved. What about the middle, those people who do not hear the Gospels, yet still live exemplary lives? Where do they fall.

We go back to my previous point. How do these people know that what they are doing is right? By admitting that people can live exemplary lives without the Gospels, you show that people must have some kind of law written on their hearts. This law is usually called the Natural Law, which Christians believe everyone comes equipped.

Let's look at a good Biblical example of someone who was saved, even though he could not have heard of Christ.

Genesis
15:6
Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness.

So clearly, from the example of Abraham, one can become a servent of God without the Gospels, at least before the Gospels were written. How did Abraham find out about God?

Genesis
12:1-4

The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

"I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him.

If God can come to Abraham, why can he not come to others as well? In this sense, many who have not heard the Gospels can still know God and to do His will.

"Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ, of His Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."

"Salvation outside the Church"

F. A. Sullivan.

I hope this helps. This is a very difficult question, which other churches answer differently. We cannot know how many are among the elect who are not baptised, who have not publicly professed a faith in Christ. However, God as a merciful God, will not neglect those who diligently seek Him.

[Berzerker]

Obiwan -

Matt 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The key part of the passage is that these people did the works. They had miracles, they prophesied. However, what they did not do was the work of the Father. One must first accept that Jesus is the Son of God before one can know what the Father wants.

But these people had faith, they just didn't do the right works - the will of the Father. They came to Jesus and spoke of the deeds they did in his name.

There is no dichotomy between Faith and Works. Those who truly believe that Christ is Lord will do the works, out of love, not to earn salvation. However, Faith must come first.

According to that passage, those people had faith or they wouldn't have been acting in Jesus' name in the first place.

I've condensed your other points, since we are touching on a pretty deep issue, when you mention the word "heard".

I think that we have established that if one hears the Gospels and rejects them, that person would not be saved, regardless of the good works they have done.

How can one do the works Jesus wants and reject the gospels?

If someone hears the Gospels and accepts them, they would be saved.

Then that means accepting all the instructions on how to behave - works.

What about the middle, those people who do not hear the Gospels, yet still live exemplary lives? Where do they fall.

We go back to my previous point. How do these people know that what they are doing is right? By admitting that people can live exemplary lives without the Gospels, you show that people must have some kind of law written on their hearts. This law is usually called the Natural Law, which Christians believe everyone comes equipped.

But without the faith you claim we need. Faith in Jesus as Lord, a faith people who've never heard of him lack.

Let's look at a good Biblical example of someone who was saved, even though he could not have heard of Christ.

Genesis
15:6
Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness.

So clearly, from the example of Abraham, one can become a servent of God without the Gospels, at least before the Gospels were written. How did Abraham find out about God?

God called him, before the gospels were written. How does that support the argument that accepting the gospels is a requirement? Yes, God can save whom he/she wants for whatever reason.

If God can come to Abraham, why can he not come to others as well? In this sense, many who have not heard the Gospels can still know God and to do His will.

Yup, which means the gospels are not a requirement, and therefore, faith in Jesus cannot be a requirement. So, why did God come to Abraham and others like Job before the gospels were written? Because they were worthy. How did God know this? Their works?

"Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ, of His Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Agathon]

Well well Obiwan; trapped in a cut and paste duel with Berz? Believe me, he's like the Energizer bunny - he'll never stop.

[Ben Kenobi]

Agathon:
Trapped?

Naw. He's reasonable and we are making progress.

Don't let the length bore you, this is a good debate.

But without the faith you claim we need. Faith in Jesus as Lord, a faith people who've never heard of him lack.

Okay, is faith in Christ as Lord different from the faith of Abraham? Yes, but not so different that one will result in salvation, while the other will not. The faith of Abraham is in God the Father. This faith is available to those who have not heard the Gospels, not to those who have heard.

Because they were worthy. How did God know this? Their works?

God can examine hearts and minds.

How can one do the works Jesus wants and reject the gospels?

Not possible. I said that.

BTW- you failed to highlight the first part of the quote:

"yet sincerely seek God"

Faith first, then come works.

Then that means accepting all the instructions on how to behave - works.

Now we are confusing what you mean by works.
Works = deeds done. Accepting all the instructions = Faith in Christ.

You don't need to accept them all at first, all you need is to accept that Christ is Lord to be saved.

[Rex Little]

I just dropped back to take a look at this thread after several days' absence. Wow. Rand would turn over in her grave if she knew that religion was being debated in a thread with her name on it.

[chequita guevara]

Any pain we can cause the evil witch is good.

[Richard Bruns]

Originally posted by Berzerker
RB -
You said it was wrong to coerce you to pay for the stupidity of an addict who ends up in a hospital, but then you advocate doing exactly that to others and try to justify the double standard by claiming you aren't using as much coercion. Well la-de-da

Allowing people to die generates a certain amount of coercion against the rest of society, especially if they had dependents. If we can prevent those deaths with less coercion than the death would have caused, we have done something good. The amount of coercion used to gain the money then becomes important. Luxury taxes are just about the least coercive form of taxation imaginable. If you don´t want to pay the tax, don´t buy the good. But it is impossible to get out of income tax.

[Berzerker]

Hmm...thought this thread had died a somewhat peaceful death.

RB -

Allowing people to die generates a certain amount of coercion against the rest of society, especially if they had dependents.

My death does not constitute coercion on others.

If we can prevent those deaths with less coercion than the death would have caused, we have done something good.

The deaths cause no coercion. If you commit suicide because you're depressed or in pain, your act is not coercive even if your loved ones are sad.

The amount of coercion used to gain the money then becomes important. Luxury taxes are just about the least coercive form of taxation imaginable.

Why? A gun in your face to get your money is still a gun in your face.

If you don´t want to pay the tax, don´t buy the good. But it is impossible to get out of income tax.

But it's possible to get out of buying goods? And this "luxury" tax, since when do you or anyone else get to decide which goods we buy are items of "luxury" and deserve higher taxes?
That imposes your sense of value on others... I remember when the liberals got a luxury tax imposed on yachts telling us how they were only getting the "rich". About a year later, New England liberals tried to get their geographic region exempt from the tax they nailed us with because the "luxury" tax was ruining New England's yacht building industry. In their zeal to screw the rich, they screwed the little people building those "luxury" items...a scenario that liberals seemingly can't stop repeating...One man's luxury is another's necessity...

Agathon -

Well well Obiwan; trapped in a cut and paste duel with Berz? Believe me, he's like the Energizer bunny - he'll never stop.

Gee, of all the people here cutting and pasting, the hypocrite chooses me alone to criticise.

Obiwan -

Naw. He's reasonable and we are making progress.

Don't let the length bore you, this is a good debate.

Thx, but Agathon is neither reasonable or capable of a good debate, so you'll have to understand why he resorts to ad hominems. He used to just throw those in with his condescending proclamations of superiority masquerading as arguments.

Okay, is faith in Christ as Lord different from the faith of Abraham? Yes, but not so different that one will result in salvation, while the other will not.

There is quite a difference, faith in Abraham wasn't required for salvation.

The faith of Abraham is in God the Father. This faith is available to those who have not heard the Gospels, not to those who have heard.

The number of people with even a knowledge of Abraham is miniscule assuming this faith had to be contemporary with him, so that still doesn't account for all the people ignorant of him, the Jews, and the Bible. Even you have accepted that faith in Jesus is not a requirement since so many people never knew about him. So, how do these people get to Heaven without the required faith? They show themselves worthy of salvation by their deeds...

God can examine hearts and minds.

I have my doubts about this too, God sure seemed surprised by the behavior of the Serpent, Adam and Eve in the Garden and the incident with Job.

Now we are confusing what you mean by works.
Works = deeds done. Accepting all the instructions = Faith in Christ.

But Jesus gave all sorts of instructions and you claim all we need is to love God and our neighbors. Wouldn't this love cover all the instructions? Why would Jesus tell us to do "A" when "A" is accomplished thru this love?

[Ben Kenobi]

Berzerker:

faith of Abraham, not faith in Abraham. The Jews believe in the convenant promises given to Abraham also apply to them, but they are all based in faith of God.

I have my doubts about this too, God sure seemed surprised by the behavior of the Serpent, Adam and Eve in the Garden and the incident with Job.

Let's go over those passages.

Genesis 3:8-13

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"

The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Why does God ask these questions, if he knows the truth? God is testing Adam and Eve to see if they are truthful. Rather than admitting guilt, both Adam and Eve passed the buck.

Secondly, with Job 40:1-9

The LORD said to Job:

"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!"

Then Job answered the LORD :

"I am unworthy-how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
I spoke once, but I have no answer-
twice, but I will say no more."

Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

"Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?

God asks these questions, expecting Job to submit. He is laying out a case that should be obvious to Job.

Let me know if these are not the alluded passages.

you claim all we need is to love God and our neighbors.

No, not I, but Christ. Christ says that these are the two greatest commandments and that the rest of the Law depends on these two.

Why would Jesus tell us to do "A" when "A" is accomplished thru this love?

He wants to offer solutions to specific problems of the day, to make the right actions more clear, applications of the two general principles.