Stupidity is genetic: Apolyton Eugenics

[Ben Kenobi]

b) It is unfair to all other people, since they must financially and otherwise support them, while there is a solution to that problem. and yes, it's a problem. if it is not a problem, than why are they entitled to be supported financially?

Now you have to weigh costs.

How do you know genetic engineering will be cheaper than accomodation?

Do you believe that this will remain voluntary, given that parents will want to 'fix' their children?

since THEY don't exist yet as a sentient entity when they are corrected, what difference does that make?

Deaf/Blind people are not sentient? Care to rephrase?

[Az]

It's a problem to the society, not to the person.

yes it is, the majority of the people of the various conditions want to be cured, not because they want to be like everyone else, but because it will make their lives easier.

If they lived in a society where everyone was blind, they would not need special support.

That kind of society can exist in only a handful of places on earth, while other societies where other conditions are the norm cannot exist at all, and would, in any case be replaced by the people that had mutated to fix those genetic deseases.

Think of it as compensation from society for being so rigid and unwelcoming to people outside the norm.

Erm, Why should I think of it that way? this is not the reason why it's given.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Azazel

yes it is, the majority of the people of the various conditions want to be cured, not because they want to be like everyone else, but because it will make their lives easier.

And when did you become every disabled person's spokesman?

That kind of society can exist in only a handful of places on earth, while other societies where other conditions are the norm cannot exist at all, and would, in any case be replaced by the people that had mutated to fix those genetic deseases.

Erm, Why should I think of it that way? this is not the reason why it's given.

It doesn't matter where it exists, I was just trying to show why they need the support - because they don't fit into society. They can not function in a society that is not suited for their condition, thus they need support from the people who can to get by.

Like I said - It's not their problem, it's the society's.

[Az]

Obiwan: as I've said REPEATEDLY, and this is also a reply to your '', these procedures are done at the zygote level, before even an embrio is developed. "Volountary" doesn't come to it, at all, since these people don't exist yet. we do, however take a look at the people living to day, and we see that clearly the vast majority are disadvanged from those conditions, and suffer from them, to some degree.

Therefore, it is good to fix those deseases.

Now you have to weigh costs

When this package treatment will be introduced, Hundreds of billions of dollars, meaning lots of production will be saved, EACH YEAR, worldwide. Even if those resources are not used to the betterment of all humanity, and I wish they were, it will still be better than the current situation.

[Ben Kenobi]

"Volountary" doesn't come to it, at all, since these people don't exist yet.

Thanks for clarifying.

However, that argument's not going to work for me.

BTW- you might want to tighten your terminology. Zygotes are persons? Can you have persons who don't exist?

Could this form of genetic engineering be done on adults as well, or would that be a seperate technique?

the vast majority are disadvanged from those conditions, and suffer from them, to some degree.

What 'conditions?' Surely we all have our flaws.

Hundreds of billions of dollars, meaning lots of production will be saved, EACH YEAR, worldwide.

Speculation? Do you have a source for these numbers? What's the reasoning behind them?

[Az]

And when did you become every disabled person's spokesman?

If they're ok, and don't have any problems, then I guess I shouldn't support them, right?

It doesn't matter where it exists, I was just trying to show why they need the support - because they don't fit into society.

that's not correct. they need support because they cannot sustain themselves without it.

They can not function in a society that is not suited for their condition, thus they need support from the people who can to get by.

how would a society that is suited to their condition look? besides, each of these groups is a small minority. Why should we ignore the rest of the people? I am not saying that we shouldn't support them, because right now, that's the most we can do.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Azazel
that's not correct. they need support because they cannot sustain themselves without it.

Yes, because the society does not allow them to. As I said, if a blind person lived in a society where eveyone as blind - he would obviously have the means of supporting himself. A blind person does not have the means of supporting himself in our society (well, not as easily anyways) and that is not because blind people are incapble of looking after themselves, it is because society isn't suited for them.

how would a society that is suited to their condition look?

You're asking a very specific question about a very broad category of people, and I don't see what it really matters anyways. I'm not talking about making societies for blind people or anything, I'm just trying to show you that disabilities are relative to the society.

[Az]

BTW- you might want to tighten your terminology. Zygotes are persons? Can you have persons who don't exist?

Zygote is a fertilized egg cell. He will become a person in the womb, in time. but he's not one right now. The only reason coersion BY ITSELF is wrong is that the person that is forced, feels like he wanted to do one thing, and was forced to do something else. Since he's just a zygote at this stage, he couldn't be upset about anything.

Could this form of genetic engineering be done on adults as well, or would that be a seperate technique?

we were taking blindness a specific case. This cannot be changed, since the gene engineering will invlove the genes responsible to the developement of the human, and the construction of the retina, eye, optic nerve ,etc. These stop working at adulthood, pretty much, and that's why genetic therapy cannot change the structure of your jaw, for example.

There are other sorts of deseases, for example syndromes related to deficiencies of certain materials in the body. these can be corrected during lifetime, since there damage is not a single-time damage, like a failure of developement, but a constant failure, of a process that repeats itself during the entire lifetime of the patient. this is done with a method called retroviral engineering, which will add a suplimental DNA to the current DNA, and will allow the synthesis of the needed proteins ( to synthesize the needed materials ). This method is currently not used, since it is in prototype stage only. IIRC experimental treatments have been done on some children that were hopelessly sick. 15 treatments succeeded, while the 16th kid died because of a malfunction of the process.

Speculation? Do you have a source for these numbers? What's the reasoning behind them?

A very large percentage of healthcare budgets around the world go on the treatment of people with deseases that are based on genetics. we can prevent or limit the appearance of many deseases.

[Ben Kenobi]

The only reason coersion BY ITSELF is wrong is that the person that is forced, feels like he wanted to do one thing, and was forced to do something else. Since he's just a zygote at this stage, he couldn't be upset about anything.

Can one coerce a child?

This cannot be changed, since the gene engineering will invlove the genes responsible to the developement of the human, and the construction of the retina, eye, optic nerve ,etc. These stop working at adulthood, pretty much, and that's why genetic therapy cannot change the structure of your jaw, for example.

Good. We've had a few 'perfectionists' here in this thread. Nice to hear from somebody who actually knows what he is talking about.

So for you, 'conditions' are those which we can narrow down to the action of specific genes?

Have you considered the possibility that we do not know what effects each gene has on its neighbours, that in changing one gene, we change the effectiveness of others?

[Az]

Can one coerce a child?

Yes. a child is a sensing human being.

Good. We've had a few 'perfectionists' here in this thread. Nice to hear from somebody who actually knows what he is talking about.

I'm a chemistry student, and taking biology cources as well.

So for you, 'conditions' are those which we can narrow down to the action of specific genes?

actions of specific genes, or groups of genes. There is no point discussing any other deseases in a thread that is about enhancing humans through genetic engineering.

Have you considered the possibility that we do not know what effects each gene has on its neighbours, that in changing one gene, we change the effectiveness of others?

that's what research is for. And this is not something far-fetched, either. we can compare the genotypes of carriers, with the genotypes of healthy people. there are techniques.

[Az]

Yes, because the society does not allow them to.

Does society discriminate against them ? didn't think so , quite the other way around.

As I said, if a blind person lived in a society where eveyone as blind - he would obviously have the means of supporting himself.

a seeing man would have the means to support him as well, and much better so. Therefor, having no sight is a disadvantage.

A blind person does not have the means of supporting himself in our society (well, not as easily anyways) and that is not because blind people are incapble of looking after themselves, it is because society isn't suited for them.

Could you make clear, what is wrong with the society?

You're asking a very specific question about a very broad category of people, and I don't see what it really matters anyways. I'm not talking about making societies for blind people or anything, I'm just trying to show you that disabilities are relative to the society.

I don't see how you showed me that. In a society in which everyone's blind, If one could exist on the earth, the seeing would still have an advantage over the blind, even more so, since their traits are unique.

[tinyp3nis]

And when did you become every disabled person's spokesman?

When did you?

[Ben Kenobi]

Coercion does not depend on the state of the acted, but on the actor alone. You don't need to sense, or to know you have been coerced.

to coerce:

1 : to restrain or dominate by force

Hence, one can coerce a child through force, just as one can coerce an embryo through force.

There is no point discussing any other deseases in a thread that is about enhancing humans through genetic engineering.

What's the difference? The two are one side of the same coin. C'mon, say what this therapy can be used for. You've already eliminated some forms of blindness.

We can compare the genotypes of carriers, with the genotypes of healthy people. there are techniques.

What about thalassema? This technique of research only works for those diseases without multiple affected genes. Thalassema is one where genomes are less helpful than ordinary family studies.

You see, when we compare two genomes, the so-called healthy person will differ from the 'carrier' along many bases. How would one tell which bases correspond to the disease? You would need to have a good idea of the effected people through epidemiological studies already avaible without genetic techniques.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Azazel
Does society discriminate against them ? didn't think so , quite the other way around.

What? Disabled people discriminate against society?

a seeing man would have the means to support him as well, and much better so. Therefor, having no sight is a disadvantage.

I don't see how you showed me that. In a society in which everyone's blind, If one could exist on the earth, the seeing would still have an advantage over the blind, even more so, since their traits are unique.

Not true. In a blind society there would be no roles where sight would make any difference. If anything, they'd be at a disadvantage because everything would be written in brail, and they would not be able to relate to others as easily.

Could you make clear, what is wrong with the society?

I thought I made this pretty clear already - there is no room for disabled people in it. (Which is why society must support them)

[mactbone]

Would a blind elephant be better suited to his environment? What about a seeing elephant amidst blind elephants?

The problem is, without eyesight our other senses would pick up the slack or we would devlope other ways to interpret our surroundings. The problem is that eyesight is important. All of our senses are important or we wouldn't have them. The only reason that people who can not experience all five senses are able to function on about the same level as those with all five senses is that they have adapted and/or society enables them to live a similar life as to that of other people with the use of all five senses.