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  • #46
    Why is enforcing 1441 important now? and not 5 years ago?

    Disarming Hussein was important 5 years ago as well (well, 5 years, 2 months ago ).

    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #47
      Ummmm 1441 didn't exist five years ago, Ozz.

      But you're right.

      The UN should just make resolutions it has no intention of enforcing.

      That's good global policy and surely other little tin pot dictators won't interpret that as a signal that they too, can get away with flaunting UN resolutions.

      Good thinking!

      -=Vel=-
      The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Ozz


        Why wasn't this cleaned up at the end of the last
        Gulf war? Why is enforcing 1441 important now? and
        not 5 years ago? How many countries are in violation
        of UN rulings? Turkey, Israeli are for sure, maybe the
        US should attack them.

        OIL (hint, hint)
        Ozz, Five years ago we had Clinton and we did not have 9/11.

        Please identify what UN resolutions Turkey and Israel violate? At least with respect to Israel, the resolutions all seem conditioned on reaching a peace agreement with the Arabs. That has not happened.

        But this is the first time that I have heard that Turkey is violating UN resolutions. I would be interested to know what they are.
        http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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        • #49
          Originally posted by DinoDoc

          There isn't enough of it there for the undertaking to be worthwhile for that reason.
          Military bases in Iraq would control the entire Gulf oil area. It's not just the oil under Iraq.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Ned


            Ozz, Five years ago we had Clinton and we did not have 9/11.

            Please identify what UN resolutions Turkey and Israel violate? At least with respect to Israel, the resolutions all seem conditioned on reaching a peace agreement with the Arabs. That has not happened.

            But this is the first time that I have heard that Turkey is violating UN resolutions. I would be interested to know what they are.
            9/11 and Saddam are not proven related.
            US international policy depends on the individual
            president? This has been building for years.

            Turkey - military occupation of N. Cyprus.

            (edit - wrong smilie)

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            • #51
              It's time to finally clean up this mess.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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              • #52
                Originally posted by DanS
                It's time to finally clean up this mess.
                Should have been done 13 years ago. This and Korea
                are the results of the UN making half-assed war. ie Win the war, and lose the peace.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ozz


                  Why wasn't this cleaned up at the end of the last
                  Gulf war? Why is enforcing 1441 important now? and
                  not 5 years ago? How many countries are in violation
                  of UN rulings? Turkey, Israeli are for sure, maybe the
                  US should attack them.

                  OIL (hint, hint)
                  at teh end of the gulf war we agreed to let alternative methods work.

                  UNSCOM under Richard Butler was sent in.
                  Iraq cheated and hid its weapons. Real infor didnt come till we had a major defector in 1995 to point out where stuff was. Much was then destroyed. Iraq then decided theyd had enoough of Butler and accused him of being a US spy.

                  UNSCOM was replaced with UNMOVIC under Hans Blix, hand chosen by France and Russia to take a softer line than Butler.

                  Blix was also thrown out of Iraq (effectively - thanks Tony)
                  in '98. Clinton responded by a limited bombing campaign.
                  In the event this proved ineffective in brining Iraq to heel.
                  In 1999 Clinotn and Blair were focused on Kosovo. Afterwards Clinton was impeached, and was in no position politically to lead a controversial foreign policy initiative on Iraq. He did attempt to bring peace to Israel and the Pals, which, if successful, could have laid the groundwork for an anti-Saddam coalition. However it failed.

                  Bush came into office, intent on a for policy of no nation buidling, and focusing on domestic agenda. Powell attempted to maintain containment of Iraq at lower political cost to the US by impementing smart sanctions. He was blocked by France and Russia who wanted to drop sanctions completely.

                  Then came 9/11
                  The admin now faced several new factors
                  1. It was now shown that terror groups could manage things not before thought possible. The absence of conventional delivery systems for WMD capable of reaching North America was now of lesser relevance, irrespective of any direct Iraqi connection to Al Qaeeda
                  2. Teh administration reexamined evidence for Iraq - AL qaeeda connections - while the evidence was still sketchy, this was taken in light of the fact that all earlier evidence of AQ's intentions and capabilities had been sketchy
                  3. It was noted that terrorism DID have roots, but unlike foes of US policy, the admin identified these roots in the olitical situation in the Middle east, including anti-west fundamentalism directed by powers in Saudi, among other places
                  the US thus had a strategic imperative to do the following
                  A. Solve the pal problem
                  B. Solve the starving Iraqis problem
                  C. Begin democratization in the arab/muslim world
                  D. Gain leverage over states that support terrorism, including Saudi
                  All of these gained an urgency they did not have before 9/11.
                  For reasons that we can discuss, the admin saw regime change in Iraq as advancing ALL these issues,and thus as essential to the WOT, in addition to dealing with the issues in 1 and 2.
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Ozz


                    9/11 and Saddam are not proven related.
                    US international policy depends on the individual
                    president? This has been building for years.

                    Turkey - military occupation of N. Cyprus.

                    (edit - wrong smilie)
                    Could you please cite the resolution for us??
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                    • #55
                      I don't think that these worthless missiles are even as good as the V2. The V2 had a range of 200 miles.

                      The Americans must have a copy of 'How to invent a casus belli, for idiots'.

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                      • #56
                        The thing is, missles have agreed to destroy Hussein back.
                        NOW, we're onto something.
                        Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                        "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                        He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sandman
                          I don't think that these worthless missiles are even as good as the V2. The V2 had a range of 200 miles.

                          The Americans must have a copy of 'How to invent a casus belli, for idiots'.
                          mileage range is IIUC part of UN resolutions going back some years, it wasnt determined by the Bush Administration.
                          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                          • #58
                            Of course, Saddam is stalling. Otherwise, he would have accepted the destruction of his Al-Samouds earlier. He accepted at the very last moment to make the Security Council feel awkward, by asking the question :
                            "is he ready to comply to the UN to avoid losing his head ?"

                            I'm sure the pro-peace countries feel the answer is yes. And I'm sure the pro-war countries feel the answer is no.
                            "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                            "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                            "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Spiffor
                              Of course, Saddam is stalling. Otherwise, he would have accepted the destruction of his Al-Samouds earlier. He accepted at the very last moment to make the Security Council feel awkward, by asking the question :
                              "is he ready to comply to the UN to avoid losing his head ?"

                              I'm sure the pro-peace countries feel the answer is yes. And I'm sure the pro-war countries feel the answer is no.
                              Spiff:
                              We note that Alain Juppe and others are expressing concern to maintain the Franco-american relationship. While I realize that Juppe and these others have not expressed views on Iraq that I share, i am heartened that there are some in France who are concerned with Atlanticism, who realize that the US is not the principle threat to peace, and that it is not worth damaging our relationship "to save a dictator"
                              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Spiffor

                                I'm sure the pro-peace countries feel the answer is yes. And I'm sure the pro-war countries feel the answer is no.
                                Just a quibble - those in US who support the admin on Iraq are not "pro-war". we long for peace. we feel that this war now, will advance the long term interests of peace. I realize that one might say that about many wars and be wrong, but i refuse to be tagged as less pro-peace than some whose actions i think have in many instances obstructed peace.
                                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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