Klein warns Ottawa of separation threat

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
How many does Puerto Rico elect?

They seem to like it like that though. We've offered them statehood before.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
How many does Puerto Rico elect?

Puerto Rico is a US territory, not state.
And as a US territory, it's given far more power over its region than a typical state. Which is way more autonomy than we'd have under Canada.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Asher
UR:

10% of the population doesn't mean we get 0 say. Especially considering all of the money this province brings in.

It shouldn't be an all-or-nothing thing.

It depends on the political system then. If the province didn't vote for the Libs and they are now in power, it's pretty hard to convince them to be good to you.

The only thing you can do is to attract more people to the province. I am sure Alberta can do that with all its oil money.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Asher

Puerto Rico is a US territory, not state.
And as a US territory, it's given far more power over its region than a typical state. Which is way more autonomy than we'd have under Canada.

I was just trying to point out that Alberta, much like Quebec, seems to think that they can walk out and the US will welcome them with open arms and give them everything they want.

Alaska and Hawaii were 'part of' the US for a long time before they became states, with all the rights that go with that.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
It depends on the political system then. If the province didn't vote for the Libs and they are now in power, it's pretty hard to convince them to be good to you.

Yeah, no kidding.
Tingkai's solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal. This way, he reasons, everyone is important! I still laugh at that.

The only thing you can do is to attract more people to the province. I am sure Alberta can do that with all its oil money.

You're right -- which is why Calgary is the fastest growing city in Canada, and Alberta has lead the country in immigration from other provinces now for several years running. Unfortunately, as I've said before in this thread, this doesn't give us any more say. The Liberals know Alberta's population is booming, and that's why they're not redrawing election ridings. We've got a lot more people, no more say. It's funny how that works.

I was just trying to point out that Alberta, much like Quebec, seems to think that they can walk out and the US will welcome them with open arms and give them everything they want.

Alaska and Hawaii were 'part of' the US for a long time before they became states, with all the rights that go with that.

I wasn't sure Quebec was sure of it? I can pretty much guarantee they'd adopt Alberta as a state if we asked, why wouldn't they? They'd love to get their hands on a lot more domestic oil.

But I still think a US territory (like Peurto Rico) is better. We can adopt the US currency and take advantage of the US military, while having a ton of autonomy. Statehood isn't a necessity.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Asher


I wasn't sure Quebec was sure of it? I can pretty much guarantee they'd adopt Alberta as a state if we asked,

Not unless you work for the State Department

They'd love to get their hands on a lot more domestic oil.

Think about it. Alberta has no sea frontier. Oil is a ***** to ship by plane. The US and Canada are the only market. Alberta'd sell them the oil based on whatever deal the US saw fit to offer, and be grateful.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Think about it. Alberta has no sea frontier. Oil is a ***** to ship by plane.

Please tell me this is a joke...
There are pipelines that go places. Yes, even to coasts. Which aren't too far away...

The US and Canada are the only market. Alberta'd sell them the oil based on whatever deal the US saw fit to offer, and be grateful.

The US knows that Canada's oil supply is anything but guaranteed.
See: NEP, Kyoto...

NAFTA helped a lot, but it's still easier when it's part of your country.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Asher


Please tell me this is a joke...
There are pipelines that go places. Yes, even to coasts. Which aren't too far away...

Why would anyone (Canada, presumably) just let Alberta ship oil through their territory? Again, you're presuming that Alberta will just ask, and be given...

You guys have a LOT in common with Quebec... next thing, you'll want to keep the passport and walk out on your share of the debt

[Asher]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Why would anyone (Canada, presumably) just let Alberta ship oil through their territory? Again, you're presuming that Alberta will just ask, and be given...

The pipelines have already been built, the deals and contracts already signed. I don't see your point?

The US also has pipelines already going through Canada, from Alaska down to Washington, I don't see where you're going with this?

[Tingkai]

Asher: The joke is that you don't understand basic politics.

I have explained the simple concept of power voting to you many times, and you still don't get it. But don't worry, we're not going to laugh at your ignorance. (although I am amazed that you continue to humilate yourself).

You really need to take a basic course about political strategy.

And don't twist my words. I have never said the "solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal."

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Asher: The joke is that you don't understand basic politics.

I have explained the simple concept of power voting to you many times, and you still don't get it. But don't worry, we're not going to laugh at your ignorance. (although I am amazed that you continue to humilate yourself).

You really need to take a basic course about political strategy.

And don't twist my words. I have never said the "solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal."

You have so. In a thread on Apolyton quite a while ago.

We spent about 50 posts laughing at you for it. You claimed if we voted Liberal, they'd pay attention to us, but because we never vote Liberal, they never need to listen to us.

I understand the basic politics fine, you just don't understand that I'm saying we need to change how it works. You keep making strawmen into thinking I'm explaining how the current system works, you post a bunch of LOL smilies, then ask what I'm smoking if I think the system works like that.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Asher

The pipelines have already been built, the deals and contracts already signed. I don't see your point?

The US also has pipelines already going through Canada, from Alaska down to Washington, I don't see where you're going with this?

The point is, the agreements that allow oil pipelines to pass through (after separation) foreign territory might get, ah, modified slightly, since Alberta's new neighbours would know they had Klein and Co. by the short ones

Again... you're constructing this scenario in the expectation that it'll all go smoothly... when there's no reason to expect it will. Few secessions do.

[RedFred]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Asher: I have never said the "solution to this was for everyone to vote Liberal."

Heck. Don't even think of it. We tried that in BC and look at the mess we are in.

(Yes, I am aware that BC Libs and Fed Libs are different animals. )

[Asher]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
The point is, the agreements that allow oil pipelines to pass through (after separation) foreign territory might get, ah, modified slightly, since Alberta's new neighbours would know they had Klein and Co. by the short ones

Again... you're constructing this scenario in the expectation that it'll all go smoothly... when there's no reason to expect it will. Few secessions do.

You're constructing this scenerio where Canada would suddenly change its policy on foreign pipelines on the basis of Alberta seceeding, in the process putting port workers in BC out of a job all because the country is bitter for Alberta leaving.

Actually, that sounds like something Chretien just might do. It doesn't really matter, of course, since there's no shortage of oil demand in the US at all.

The vast majority of Alberta exports go directly to the US. If we were part of the US, it'd be even less of a hassle to trade with other US states, and that would more than set off any problems the jealous folks in BC may or may not cause...

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Again... why would the US not drive a hard bargain with Alberta, simply because they knew Alberta had no other option?