Finally a GOOD poll about Iraque / war / pacifism

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Straybow
Drogue, the US isn't using force on any of the Euroweenies.

No, I never said he was. He's using force against Saddam (or rather, wants too) and thus inflicting his, American/Western morals onto Saddam. Although I take your point about the UN resolutions, not that I'd put it quite like that, but who were we to say those resolutions in the first place? We don't abide by them, so why should he?

[Maniac]

CyberShy:

Ok I take back the "no backbone" thing. I said it in an impulse, on a less intellectual moment, being dragged away in a simplistic way of thinking like everyone in the US . My actual opinion is:
If you are pro-war you're following the USA.
If you're anti-war you're following France.
But since I am a strongly pro-Europe I'd rather have all the European countries agreeing with France than with our rival the United States. It's a simple pragmatic game of power politics. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. France and the USA are just behaving the same.

Pekka:

Besides, France is acting like the center of the Europe, making axis with Germany.

Big news. Germany is the biggest economic power of Europe, France the third. Like it or not, they ARE the centre.

We are all different countries, and we will NEVER recognize foreign power coming outside of our countries. We will NEVER submit to that kind of blackmailing of aggressive attitudes.

*shrugs* That's your personal opinion with which I respectfully disagree. I want a stronger unified Europe, so the less power the individual countries have, the more I like it.

We will not take foreign values and praise them as superioir, and you can take that to the bank.

Values? Aren't you a little overexaggerating? France wants Europe to follow their foreign policy, not that every Fin starts speaking French and drinking wine. I don't see why we couldn't have stronger supranational institutes and cooperation, and at the same time keep our own culture and values.

He should explain his views etc

France, Belgium and Germany haven't been doing anything else... Unlike the USA which can't come up with serious proof of weapons of mass destruction.

What does it tell you? That he can not control himself, and that his emotions get in the way

Have you actually see him say it on tv? He looked perfectly in control of his emotions to me. He was just playing a studied act.

That is close to blackmailing 'change your views, or you're not aloud to enter our union'..

And I completely agree with this 'blackmail'. The deal is like this: You are allowed into our Union, with all the economical advantages, but in return you have to give up part of your national sovereignity to European institutions. That also involves a common foreign policy. And it is not in the advantage of Europe as a whole that the USA, our closest economic competitor, gets more influence in Iraq. Hence...

[orange]

Originally posted by Maniac
Let France/Europe rule the world!

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Dissident
The U.N. is worthless without enforcement.

Wow, that sentence works even without the last two words.
Although, I prefer without them because they imply that the UN has some sort of authority.

[Kramerman]

well said Pekka

[Ned]

Re: Re: Sauce for the gander

Originally posted by Drogue

My morals aren't better than anyone elses, and I'm not trying to force them onto others. I'm simply staing my case. I'm not using force to make people agree with what I say. Can someone tell me why I'm wrong? What other reason is Bush wanting to attack for? WHat is his motivation? Is he not guided by his morals? What makes America so different, that other countries abide by the UN and America doesn't?

Drogue, Two points:

1) What do you mean that the US does not abide by the UN?

2) As a proposition, can the UN control the behavior of any of the permanent members? After all, they have a veto.

[Straybow]

[Bush is] inflicting his, American/Western morals onto Saddam. Although I take your point about the UN resolutions, not that I'd put it quite like that, but who were we to say those resolutions in the first place? We don't abide by them, so why should he?

Drogue, it isn't just UN resolutions that Saddam has defied; resolutions he did not vote for. Just about every nation ignores UN resolutions they don't like. He is defying the treaty he did sign with the US and his Arab neighbors. Our ceasation of hostilities was conditional on the terms of that treaty, and for breaking that treaty we should kick his butt all over again.

[Robert]

Maniac: Ok I take back the "no backbone" thing. I said it in an impulse, on a less intellectual moment, being dragged away in a simplistic way of thinking

You have my respect for saying this

If you are pro-war you're following the USA.
If you're anti-war you're following France.
But since I am a strongly pro-Europe I'd rather have all the European countries agreeing with France than with our rival the United States. It's a simple pragmatic game of power politics. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. France and the USA are just behaving the same.

France and the USA aren't behaving exactly the same.
In fact the USA has an opinion, and France is (automaticly) against, but in the end France will join the war, because it wants to be a part of it anyway.

France is more power-hungry than the USA. That's not so strange, the USA already has all the power france longs for.

Besides that, the french point of view is actually not the european point of view. Only belgium and germany share it completely. Majority of the countries has a more neutral point of view, and a big minority is with the US. (England, Italy, Spain) and a small minority is somewhere between neutral and pro USA (Netherlands in example)

I disagree that it's all power-politics from the USA side.
We know that the french have done this before, and it's all power-politics on their side.
We know that the german's point of view was born during the 2002 elections.

We know that the american point of view was born on 09-11.
Pherhaps the american have the wrong reaction on 09-11, but you can't blame them for power-politics being their nr1 reason for a war.

Big news. Germany is the biggest economic power of Europe, France the third. Like it or not, they ARE the centre.

England is 2nd, Italy is 4th.
They're not the center, eventhough they are important.
But the sum of the 'more or less pro USA' countries is bigger than the sum of France and Germany.

*shrugs* That's your personal opinion with which I respectfully disagree. I want a stronger unified Europe, so the less power the individual countries have, the more I like it.

I agree with you on this.
But that makes me wonder again why France and Germany are acting solo.

France wants Europe to follow their foreign policy

that's bad enough.

France, Belgium and Germany haven't been doing anything else... Unlike the USA which can't come up with serious proof of weapons of mass destruction.

come on, you can't be serious on that.
All France / Germany have come with is some vague argument that with protecting Turkey the war has come closer. I think it's a valid argument, but a vague one.

It can't stand against the request of one friend who asks for help.

people who say this:

Sadam is bad but Bush is worse. No war, no sanctions

should we take them serious?
(for the sadam is bad but Bush is worse part, not the 'no war, no sanction' part which is a reasonable point of view)