Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Ozz]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why should we?

Maybe cause the US set up the U.N in the first place.

You can always withdraw like 1930's Japan invading
China, or 1930s Italy invading Ethopia.

Mhh... Seems to be a common theme developing here.

[Velociryx]

The facts, Duncan, do not bear out what you are saying.

More often than not, people go to work ten or twelve hours a day, busting their a$$es for the money to make their dreams come true.

America creates more millionaires every year than any other nation on the planet.

America has more millionaires per capita than any other nation on the planet.

Do you actually believe they're all liars, cheats, and theives?

Will you think the same of me when i get there?

-=Vel=-

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ozz
Maybe cause the US set up the U.N in the first place.

What exactly does that have to do with agreeing to treaties that you don't believe are in your best interests to ratify?

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
More often than not, people go to work ten or twelve hours a day, busting their a$$es for the money to make their dreams come true.

Not true, most people are just trying to survive.

"All capital is dripping with blood"-marx

I'm not talking about people who save their money to use for retirement or vacation, but people who borrow money, invest that money in some industry, employ a bunch of people to do the work for them, and then live like a fat cat are cheats.

[Velociryx]

Why are they cheats, exactly? They took the *initiative* and the (not insubstantial) *risk* of starting up a new business.

They did not put guns to the heads of the people they interviewed, and force them to come to work at the new factory, chaining them to the machinery, rather they are offering people a chance to earn a fair wage for a day's work.

These people can either accept or decline that offer. If they don't like the offer, they can ask for more, and they may get it.

Where is the servitude here? At no point is there coersion on my part...I'm not threatening anybody....they can either come to work for me or not.

And, since I am taking the big risk here (the banks will not come looking for you if I can't make the interest payment on the machine, they'll come looking for me), so what if I make more money? Given the added risk on my part, it's not something I'm going to feel guilty about, and in any case, it's an entirely separate transaction from the wage you agreed to when you agreed to come to work. You didn't agree to come to work, contingent on what I'm making, you made your own decision about whether or not the offered wage was fair.

As to saving for the future or survival....if that is true of the majority of people you know, then write me privately. I made a business of helping people out of that very situation for a few years, and was successful at it. Don't do it any more (at least not for a living), but I'd be willing to lend a hand if needed. I can tell you though, that NONE of the people I know are living hand to mouth. Some were....but I changed that....more importantly, I helped them to change it for themselves...

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Oh well, they took initiative so I will give them part of what I have work so hard for. It doesn't matter that I'm struggling to survive, oh but someone took initiative.

btw, that is sarcasm

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
As to saving for the future or survival....if that is true of the majority of people you know, then write me privately. I made a business of helping people out of that very situation for a few years, and was successful at it. Don't do it any more (at least not for a living), but I'd be willing to lend a hand if needed. I can tell you though, that NONE of the people I know are living hand to mouth. Some were....but I changed that....more importantly, I helped them to change it for themselves...

-=Vel=-

Thanx Vel, I'm not ashamed to say that I've been through tuff times. Luckily for be someone has always been there to help me out. Just because I have everything I need right now doesn't mean that I'm not struggling to survive though. I don't have a large bank account in case something happens to my family. There are a lot of people who don't have someone to lean on when something does happen.

Sure, there is a lot of charity, but it will never be enough.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
And, since I am taking the big risk here (the banks will not come looking for you if I can't make the interest payment on the machine, they'll come looking for me), so what if I make more money? Given the added risk on my part, it's not something I'm going to feel guilty about, and in any case, it's an entirely separate transaction from the wage you agreed to when you agreed to come to work. You didn't agree to come to work, contingent on what I'm making, you made your own decision about whether or not the offered wage was fair.

Working is not an option for most people. The bulk of workers are not happy with their job, that doesn't mean they are going to quit. Quiting is irresponsible, especially if you have a family. This is where the capitalist are able to exploit the workers. They will always have more negotiating power. The are the owners so they can go without production, but the workers can not.

[Garth Vader]

Originally posted by Willem

Many years ago, I think Bresnev was in power, I ran into a girl who had left the Soviet Union. She mentioned that yes, everyone had a job, but the approach was to hire three people for a task that only required one. Now I don't know about you, but I think I would rather curl up and die than be forced to work at a boring job where I usually ended up sitting on my butt for 8 hours a day.

That's because for some reason we are a slave to the 8 hour day.

From your example I think each person should have only been working around 3 hours a day.

I keep hearing how much more productive we are now, and how great the system is, but yet people are working more and more just to get by. A lot of people say you need two incomes now, you didn't when my parents were my age.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Garth Vader

I keep hearing how much more productive we are now, and how great the system is, but yet people are working more and more just to get by. A lot of people say you need two incomes now, you didn't when my parents were my age.

That's hardly surprising given all the competition from developing countries. If people in these countries can do the same job at only a tenth of your compensation, then you must expect some effect on your job security and compensation.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


Not true, most people are just trying to survive.

That's crap! The middle class is the majority in our societies and judging by the computers, televisions (sometimes one in each room), game consoles, dishwashers, food processors etc. etc. that I see in their homes, I'd say they were doing more than just surviving. They want "stuff", and the capitalist system is designed to give them that "stuff".

Now do they want to much "stuff"? I'd say yes, but why should society have the right to determine what they can or cannot have, while some "fat cat" politburo gets pretty much anything he/she wants.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK

The bulk of workers are not happy with their job, that doesn't mean they are going to quit.

Well I can't speak for the US but here in Canada a recent poll discovered that 60% of Canadians were happy with their jobs, and felt secure. And yes, it was a reputable poll.

Yep, a capitalist society is really tough to live in. Oh, and that was also sarcasm.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
A lot of people say you need two incomes now, you didn't when my parents were my age.

But we also have a much higher standard of living than our parents did as well. It balances out.

[Velociryx]

IF people are living hand to mouth, they can change it. I know....I've done it. Not once, but 4-5 times. For a long time, my life was very restless. Pretty much living outta my car, traveling around gypsy style and taking odd jobs where I could find them.

I learned a lot about the world that way, and saw a lot of cool things. It's not an experience I would trade for anything, but a lot of people would view it as irresponsible since I wasn't doing the typical nine-to-five routine.

I'd find a new town, get myself set up, and invariably, the restlessness would settle in, I'd sell everything, pick up, and move to another new town and start over.

Eventually, I got all that wanderlust out of my system, and started over one last time (oddly, right back where I started from, in South Carolina). Been here for five years now, and in that time, I have once again, gotten myself set up and established, bought and paid for a new truck, and will be in my first house by this October.

I was able to do that, not by being lazy, but by busting my a$$ every day, working two jobs for a while, AND writing my books AND working on a computer game.

Was it fun? Nope. It was a grind. Sometimes I HATED even having to get out of bed in the morning.

Is it working? Yes! To the point where I've now got three books written, a game soon to be in beta, and have been able to cut back to one job (which makes every day feel like a vacation!).

When I got back from my little gypsy jaunt, I was more than twelve thousand dollars in debt, and had a car that appraised at (don't laugh) $490 bucks (traded it in on the truck).

Having lived and breathed what you are talking about, I can tell you with confidence that the bulk of people living hand to mouth do it to themselves. It's called "living beyond your means."

For years, I have lived slightly beneath my means (not greatly, mind you, just slightly), and the results have been staggering.

If I could do it over again, I'd live radically beneath my means and accomplish my goals quicker, but I was a cautious experimenter in that regard.

It works. Not just for some people, but for everybody.

Doesn't matter what kind of job you do, or how much education you have....*it does not matter.*

If you want to break free from the system that you feel chains you, then you must be willing to do what it takes to get there, however.

If you're not willing to make sacrifices along the way, then you must ask yourself, how important is it to you?

-=Vel=-

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx
IF people are living hand to mouth, they can change it. I know....I've done it. Not once, but 4-5 times. For a long time, my life was very restless. Pretty much living outta my car, traveling around gypsy style and taking odd jobs where I could find them.

Cool, I did pretty much the same thing. I lived out of a knapsack for about 5 years and just kept moving around. During that time I got into music and spent time playing my guitar on the street corner for spare change. "There's no life like it!"

(Damn hippies, some people quietly mutter under their breath.)