Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Drake Tungsten]

When did China get attacked or messed with?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
When did China get attacked or messed with?

Immediately following WWII and during the 1950s and '60s. Following WWII, the US moved forces into China to try and deny victory to the Reds, transporting ChiNat troops around, etc. We didn't do any actual fighting, though. We also sponsored ChiNat terrorists infiltrating into China and waging a guerilla war and acts of sabotage and terrorism. And then there's MacArthur's invasion of North Korea, which everyone knew that China wouldn't stand for.

[DuncanK]

Willem,

It's not so much a war between nations. It's a class war. The working class has not yet been victorious. When we are victorious you can be assured that we will be able to provide for ourselves quite well. Until then we are constantly under attack from our enemies.

[Drake Tungsten]

That's pretty weak, che. Support for the Nationalists and the Korean War have nothing to do with China's decision to abandon communism decades later. They abandoned communism because it doesn't work...

[cinch]

I'd just like to commend the people of this thread for making it an enjoyable read, and for keeping things civil and reasonable. I haven't enjoyed or been as interested in a thread as much as this in quite a while. Keep it coming!

Kudos all around.

[DuncanK]

Well capitalism isn't civil, but we can discuss it in a civil manner I suppose

[David Floyd]

Of course, as usually, you ignore the 150 failing capitalist states.

That's not really fair. Of these 150 "failing states", how many of them are saddled with corrupt, authoritarian governments that have little to do with capitalism?

Let's blame the true source of the problem - corrupt African/South American/Middle Eastern dictators whose primary concern is enriching themselves. That has nothing to do with capitalism, which involves freedom and free trade.

[David Floyd]

And then there's MacArthur's invasion of North Korea, which everyone knew that China wouldn't stand for.

Not that I support the push into North Korea - or, for that matter, US involvement in a civil war, period - but why was it the business of China? If you are making the argument that this move was inherently threatening to China, then you are simply making the same argument that Bush and Co. are making WRT Iraq and weapons of mass destruction.

[David Floyd]

When one side is constantly invaded and subjected to terrorism and the other side isn't, it skews the numbers.

Post-WW2 Soviet Union certainly wasn't innocent of wrongdoing. They maintained a huge army after the war, and stayed in areas that they "liberated" during the war, such as northern Iran. In Eastern Europe, they did not allow free elections, but rather set up a system of puppet satellite regimes against the will of the people living there. Granted, the US did much of the same, but I've never argued that the US is innocent of wrongdoing.

Or, let's look at the Soviet Union right after the Revolution. Sure, a bunch of other nations invaded it - although really they were fighting in support of the White Russians - believe it or not, the communists were not universally loved in Russia. Not that this intervention was right, I grant you.

Further, the Soviet Union invaded Poland in the 1920s and then attacked Finland in the Winter War. Yeah, sure, those were examples of capitalist powers going after the Soviet Union

Communist China has committed a litany of aggressive acts - the occupation of Tibet, the multiple border skirmishes and invasions of India (which, by the way, were fought because China wanted to take advantage of India's relative weakness in order to redraw borders), the invasion of Vietnam, years and years of shelling Taiwan, intervention against the US in Korea, border skirmishes with the Soviet Union, and, of course the murder of tens of millions of its own citizens. Again, the US did bad things too, but I'm not denying that.

Let's see...Cuba, for example, had troops in Africa exporting revolution by force of arms. The Soviet Union did the same thing in Africa, and both the SU and Cuba supplied communist forces in civil wars around the world. Communist terrorist groups, such as the Red Brigade and others, have committed a number of terrorist acts in the past.

North Korea, another communist state, is one of the most repressive in the world, starving its own people in favor of massive military spending to counter a threat that would probably not even be a threat if it hadn't launched an invasion of South Korea in 1950.

Come on, che....communist states commit plenty of aggressive and immoral acts, and generally are much more repressive towards their own people than capitalist (even using your definition of capitalism) states are.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Immediately following WWII and during the 1950s and '60s. Following WWII, the US moved forces into China to try and deny victory to the Reds, transporting ChiNat troops around, etc. We didn't do any actual fighting, though. We also sponsored ChiNat terrorists infiltrating into China and waging a guerilla war and acts of sabotage and terrorism. And then there's MacArthur's invasion of North Korea, which everyone knew that China wouldn't stand for.

There was actually a very small amount of help involved and a number of politicians and miliary planners lost their jobs because they "let China fall to the reds". The victory of the Chinese communists was a major motivating factor for the U.S. to become so deeply involved in both Korea and Vietnam.

BTW many historians contend Trumen should have followed MacAurthor's advice about invading communist china in 1950 or 1951. The Soviets were in no position to fight another major war and a U.S. supported invasion would have reinvigorated the, still on going, Chinese civil war. It would have been costly but Korea would probably been unified and China would likely would have gone through some sort of armistace/compromise between the nationalists and the communists.

[David Floyd]

Oerdin, the Chinese Nationalists were defeated and forced into exile on Taiwan in 1949.

[Dinner]

But there was still navel fighting over several small islands off the Taianese coast. Plus the communists were promising to invade and conquor Taiwan (the last nationalist stronghold) and backed down only because Eisenhower promised to nuke them if they tried.

If MacAurthor's plan was followed the U.S./U.N. forces would have found many simpathizers who would have welcomed the nationalists back.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by David Floyd


That's not really fair. Of these 150 "failing states", how many of them are saddled with corrupt, authoritarian governments that have little to do with capitalism?

Let's blame the true source of the problem - corrupt African/South American/Middle Eastern dictators whose primary concern is enriching themselves. That has nothing to do with capitalism, which involves freedom and free trade.

For that matter why don't you mention that most of the communist governments were corrupt and authoritarian.

[GePap]

Short answer? No, we can't create a US to lead the world.

The fact is that the single greatest moment of US power was between 1945 and 1949. In those four years we trully had no equals. today we are better of perhaps than we were during the late 60's and 70's when the Soviets came their closest to us, but we are not back, nor are we ever likely to be back, to our unrivalled power in 1945.

The world does not exist to be lead. Anyone who thinks they can "lead" in anything more than just an example, and an example that will be tempred through cultural prisms, is a bit of a megalomanic. The US would do a much better job of creating for itself a solid public image, if it weren't for the fact that we are a dmeocracy with internal splits about the world, and thus unlikely to present a clearer pricture of what the US means to non-Americans as we are to Americans.

[DuncanK]

You guys are missing the point. When a country has a communist revolution it instantly gains many new powerfull enemies. They have less ability to trade and they have less diplomatic power. Considering this they have done suprisingly well compared to other capitalist nations. Other capitalist nations recieve aid and protection from industrialized nations and still don't do as well.

You all know that Russia would never have had a chance without communism. Instead they recovered from WWI and WWII with amazing efficiency, launched the first satillite and defended themselves from the industrialized capitalist nations for the entirety of the USSRs existance.