Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Az]

I wast trolling, Vel.

[Velociryx]

Sorry 'zazel....must be the nyquil....

And Duncan....yes, you ARE condemning individuality. That lies at the core of the highly centralized, monolithic state that is communism.

The state controls everything.

Individuals are called upon to sacrifice themselves, their individuality TO the state, cos the state, in all its wisdom and benevolence, knows what is best for you.

And when you do this, you remove, *by definition* any possibility of personal responsibility.

Same with innovation. No reward for it, so why bother? Ahhh, but Communism's answer to that has always been a gun to the head, and yes, that DOES lead to innovation, but is that how you want to live your life? Do what the state tells you to do, and if you balk, we'll either kill you or send you to the Gulag.

No thanks.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

I'm not talking about people who save their money to use for retirement or vacation, but people who borrow money, invest that money in some industry, employ a bunch of people to do the work for them, and then live like a fat cat are cheats.

And here we get to the core of the ideology: Anyone who starts a business is a "fat cat cheat."

The people who get jobs because the "fat cat cheat" stuck his neck out to get a loan & start a company are being "exploited."

So let's say I invent a really good (inexpensive, practical, whatever) solar-powered car. I then go out and borrow a bunch of money, 'cause I cannot afford to start an automobile company, and I set up "RTE Motors." RTE Motors builds a factory and hires employees. The solar car is a hit, and RTE Motors makes lots of money. I'm now a "fat cat cheat."

Does not compute. I took a risk: the company could have failed, resulting in my failure to pay off the loan, resulting in bankruptcy for me. The reward for my risk is (partial) ownership of the company, and therefore lots of money if the company does well (thus providing me with a lot of incentive to run the business well).

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Arrian, obviously the proper thing to do would be to ignore the personal risk, and simply turn the company over to the workers you are exploiting.

Just give it to them.

Never mind that they have no real incentive to make it succeed (since it's not their name on the banknote).

Never mind that if it fails, you'll be in jail, and they'll simply go elsewhere for employment.

It's for the good of the state man, suck it up!

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Individuals are called upon to sacrifice themselves, their individuality TO the state, cos the state, in all its wisdom and benevolence, knows what is best for you.

And when you do this, you remove, *by definition* any possibility of personal responsibility.
-=Vel=-

Personal responsibility does not have to be diferent from social responsibility. This is only a Protestant ethic. It is really unique to America.

When personal responsibility is separated from social responsibility the results are a survival of the fittest, classist, elitist mentality. It is precisely that mentality that holds America back.

[Az]

Vel, you are confusing it with Fascism.

I lived in the Soviet Union, and so did my parents. They weren't no drones, and no robots.

Same with innovation. No reward for it, so why bother? Ahhh, but Communism's answer to that has always been a gun to the head, and yes, that DOES lead to innovation, but is that how you want to live your life? Do what the state tells you to do, and if you balk, we'll either kill you or send you to the Gulag.

that was during Stalin. when Stalin died, everyone knew what happened, and the system was changed. Sadly, no mechanism was placed to replace "fear" as the driving factor. And there are mechanisms other than that. like glory and honours.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Arrian


And here we get to the core of the ideology: Anyone who starts a business is a "fat cat cheat."

The people who get jobs because the "fat cat cheat" stuck his neck out to get a loan & start a company are being "exploited."

So let's say I invent a really good (inexpensive, practical, whatever) solar-powered car. I then go out and borrow a bunch of money, 'cause I cannot afford to start an automobile company, and I set up "RTE Motors." RTE Motors builds a factory and hires employees. The solar car is a hit, and RTE Motors makes lots of money. I'm now a "fat cat cheat."

Does not compute. I took a risk: the company could have failed, resulting in my failure to pay off the loan, resulting in bankruptcy for me. The reward for my risk is (partial) ownership of the company, and therefore lots of money if the company does well (thus providing me with a lot of incentive to run the business well).

-Arrian

There is nothing wrong with being rewarded for your inventions. But the kind of reward that you want inventors (and their decendants) to recieve is expoitive.

[Velociryx]

Holds America back? Now THAT's an interesting view!

As I mentioned earlier, America is the single largest, most robust economy the world has ever seen.

We (and this economic system) create more millionaires per year than any nation on earth.

And yes, personal responsibility IS different from social responsibility. At least, in the real world it is. In the Communist world, there is no personal responsibility because the all-knowing state takes care of that for you, and in doing so, robs you of your liberty and freedom of choice.

That's a steep, steep price to pay, Comrade.

Too rich for my blood.

When the dust settles, I will trust in myself to know what's best for me, rather than have the state dictate what is best for me, and if I guess wrong, it's my responsibility.

-=Vel=-

[Az]

And here we get to the core of the ideology: Anyone who starts a business is a "fat cat cheat."

I am not one of them. I don't think that this sort of rethoric is good for phylosophical discussions.

[DuncanK]

I didn't neccessarily say that. Those words were put in my mouth.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Holds America back? Now THAT's an interesting view!

As I mentioned earlier, America is the single largest, most robust economy the world has ever seen.

We (and this economic system) create more millionaires per year than any nation on earth.

And yes, personal responsibility IS different from social responsibility. At least, in the real world it is. In the Communist world, there is no personal responsibility because the all-knowing state takes care of that for you, and in doing so, robs you of your liberty and freedom of choice.

That's a steep, steep price to pay, Comrade.

Too rich for my blood.

When the dust settles, I will trust in myself to know what's best for me, rather than have the state dictate what is best for me, and if I guess wrong, it's my responsibility.

-=Vel=-

Well, that's the selfish greed that I was talking about. And that is what prevents the leaders of America from ruling in the peoples interest, and that is what prevents America from ruling the world in the worlds interest.

[Az]

I don't believe in it at all.
Most capitalists actually believe that the system is currently the most useful one, you know, "Everyone is enriched". There are those that don't give a **** about any ideology whatsoever, and are there to get the money, and the power.

The whole system needs to be changed, and blaming the burger shop manager of being a cruel opressor, doesn't only get us anywhere, it's also mostly untrue.

[Velociryx]

Let's take a microcosm example, shall we? Limit it to four people.....Duncan, Azazel, Arrian, and Vel.

We're off exploring some remote part of the world, and participating in a social experiment, where we are each responsible for ourselves alone...not to say we can't work as a team if we choose to, but we do not HAVE to.

Thousands of miles from anywhere, and nobody is coming to pick us up till this time next year.

A freak storm comes up and all our supplies get blown into the river (dang! We shouldn't have camped so close to the bank).

We're in the middle of nowhere, and we have only what we're carrying (incidental tools, and the clothes on our backs).

Arrian *happens to be* an ace at making fish traps.

Nobody else knows how, but he can do it like gangbusters.

Arrian offers to make traps for everybody, provided that we give him one fish a week for it.

Hey! That's a pretty good deal....we get a tool that we could not have made on our own, and Arrian has, with his brilliance, solved his own food crisis.

How is that exploitive? You now have a tool you otherwise would not have had, thanks to Arrian's cleverness with making fish traps.

I decide that I don't want to do anything. I don't want to try to hunt. I don't want to try to fish (refusing even Arrian's offer for a fish trap). I just don't want to participate.

So, Comrades, will you spring to my aid and make sure I have the same opportunities as everyone else?

I don't want to work for them, of course, I just want them handed to me....cos, you know, I'm a member of the community too.

Will you go hungry, not eat enough to stay healthy, just to give me a share?

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Azazel
I don't believe in it at all.
Most capitalists actually believe that the system is currently the most useful one, you know, "Everyone is enriched". There are those that don't give a **** about any ideology whatsoever, and are there to get the money, and the power.

The whole system needs to be changed, and blaming the burger shop manager of being a cruel opressor, doesn't only get us anywhere, it's also mostly untrue.

Opression is not the best word. but expoitation is a very good one, and scientifically verifiable.

[DuncanK]

Vel,

I don't think anyone would make you starve, even the Americans.

The thing is will Arrian be sitting on his ass all day while we fish? Will he eventually demand that we scratch his back all the time too, just because he can make the fish hooks.