USA Patriot Act: The Sequel

[Thorn]

Well I'm a terrorist for my views if the second patriot act passes. Some of you will be happy never to hear from me again I imagine. I bet you hope they beat rape torture and mutilate me on a daily basis.

[uh Clem]

Evan, it's not what we want that matters, it's what you want.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
IIRC, Nazi's caught in the US were stripped of their citizenship involuntarily.

Right?

IIRC, only naturalized citizens and certain Confederate leaders have been stripped of their citizenship (the later can be assumed to have renounced their citizenship when they declared independence and formed a rebel government). I'm not even sure that the government has the power to take your citizenship away if you were born here.

[DuncanK]

child of Thor,

Oh, Ok. I used to think it would be good to live in the hills when my government turned into a police state. I changed my mind when I stayed out there for a few weeks practicing

That's right. I used to be weirder than I am right now

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I don't really see the problem in this legislation. We have this stuff on the books already for other offenses. Basically, this is nothing new. I mean, if you are funding Al Queda groups, I think you've basically given up your citizenship.

What if you give money for Irish War Widows or to help educate Palestinian children? Both causes have been linked to terrorist organizations. Even if the money goes to what it says it's supposed to go to, you've given aid to a foreign terrorist group. What if you're a member of a political organization that stands in solidarity with an active revolutionary group, like CISPES (Committee In Solidarity with the People of El Salvador) or the Maryknoll Sisters who helped refugees illegally enter the US? The Revolutionary Communist Party actively supports the Shining Path. What if you support the Zapatistas?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It took a McCarthy to have McCarthyism. The other people in power at the time had no inclination to do what he did, but after he became a God-damned hero, you couldn't speak against it.

McCarthyism also targetted homosexuals, pornographers, labor unions, comic books, and lots of other things that had nothing to do with being a Commie Pinko ******.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by DuncanK
child of Thor,

Oh, Ok. I used to think it would be good to live in the hills when my government turned into a police state. I changed my mind when I stayed out there for a few weeks practicing

That's right. I used to be weirder than I am right now

(OT) It is unfortunatly true that it does take some time to acclimatise to the great out-doors. I live in a city now but some of the best times of my life have been when living closer to nature, well right in it. I've tried in various climate zones around the world and unless you have the correct equipment it is definately more comfortable in clement conditions(well atleast for me). It all comes down to education and training - what knowledge you spend your life learning. Unfortunatly they don't teach survival skills in school, but then again it wouldn't be in the governments interests too, they want your taxes! (OT)

As for this thread it IS scary stuff what is going on right now - we can only prepare in the way we think is best. I think the more oppresive a government becomes the shorter it will last, atleast i like to hope so. As i think of it i've only ever been to one country where i saw the people were actually free, really free. Check my 'Flag'.
Cool place, cool people and even though it has it's problems i learn't alot about what we in the west call freedom.

[mrmitchell]

DuncanK--

I was kidding.

(Nixon died in 1994 BTW if anyone doesnt know)
---
Really, no fooling, this **** pisses me off.

[mrmitchell]

I have the fear that the entire DoJ is the new McCarthy

[DuncanK]

I knew. Just playing along

[Imran Siddiqui]

What if you give money for Irish War Widows or to help educate Palestinian children? Both causes have been linked to terrorist organizations. Even if the money goes to what it says it's supposed to go to, you've given aid to a foreign terrorist group. What if you're a member of a political organization that stands in solidarity with an active revolutionary group, like CISPES (Committee In Solidarity with the People of El Salvador) or the Maryknoll Sisters who helped refugees illegally enter the US? The Revolutionary Communist Party actively supports the Shining Path. What if you support the Zapatistas?

Like I said (and Duncan pulled up, IIRC) this stuff has been going on since the BEGINNING. Most of the apprehension is Chicken Little stuff. The government will go after people that fund Al Queda, everything else will likely be ignored as not being serious enough.

Seriously, you think the DOJ has enough people to go after minor groups like Communists.

[Velociryx]

Yep....since they're already doing it, let's just keep letting them expand their powers and nibbling away at those freedoms.

The main point is, *right now* as of Patriot Act I, nobody is watching the watchers. Even congress gets a "sorry, that's classified" when they try to find out what the DOJ is up to these days, and, to quote Venger from the Civ3 fora, "That, my friends, sucks goat a$$."

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The government will go after people that fund Al Queda, everything else will likely be ignored as not being serious enough.

Seriously, you think the DOJ has enough people to go after minor groups like Communists.

There never was a group of communists like the ones that HUAC was looking for. They never even organized like that. HUAC went after people who were suspected of being communist. People gave names so that HUAC would get off their back. It will be the same way with this, just substitute the word 'communist' for 'terrorist.' It's a witch hunt. Just because there never were any witches it didn't stop them from burning people.

[Velociryx]

Well said, Duncan. Given the current climate in Washington these days, given the ambitions of the men behind the curtain, and given the fact that Ashcroft is....well, Ashcroft, forgive me if I'm more than a little skeptical.

We need MORE accountability, not less, and we sure as hell don't need anybody trying to steal our freedoms away while we're not looking. That is perhaps the most disturbing thing about all this. True, no White House source SAID that's what they'd try to do, but then, no White House source would.

Clearly though, if this is making the rounds now, and if the parties who authored it KNOW that it's controversial, it makes sense that they'd want to wait until the public's attention is turned elsewhere before trying to slide that right on through.

That is disingenuous, underhanded, and bordering on evil. Even if I AGREED with the tripe contained in the document, I'd feel that way.

-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

As much as I love this Chicken Little attitude, I don't see any congressional committees for the interogation for suspected terrorists. Under the first Patriot Act, what I have seen is people found fighting against the US detained.

There never was a group of communists like the ones that HUAC was looking for.

Look at declassified Soviet records, there was a substantial number of Communist spies in the State Department and Department of Defense. HUAC wasn't totally wrong, they just weren't very successful. Going after Hollywood was just moronic. For all the things the Soviets did wrong, I'll admit they were wonders at spying.