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USA Patriot Act: The Sequel

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  • #61
    1. A terrorist organization is whatever the hell Ashcroft wants it to be (if the definition of a terrorist organization is the same as the one used in the Patriot Act). It isn't necessarily limited to al-Qaeda, etc.
    2. Why is it justified to steal all their liberties if they fund al-Qaeda-type groups? Why is it ok to take away their due process? If they do something wrong, they should be able to be convicted under already existing laws, right?
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

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    • #62
      Ramo, this type of legislation has precedents in history. This time it is just changed to 'terrorism'.

      People that funded Nazi's during WW2 had their citizenship taken away. That didn't doom the United States to dicatorship and neither will this.

      Tempest in a teapot.
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

      Comment

      • #63
        1. Yes, this type of legislation has existed before (hell, look at the Patriot Act - this is simply an extension of it). If you haven't noticed, in the history of the US particularly in the last century, the gov't has been rather authoritarian with respect to dissidents. It does lead to bad things (do you really want me to give you examples?). Give the gov't authority, and it will exercise it.
        2. Ashcroft has wide discretion over what "terrorism" is. It's clear he can't be trusted with this discretion. I wouldn't trust anyone with this type of discretion.
        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
        -Bokonon

        Comment

        • #64
          Is it actually possible that you could be secretly arrested, not given due process and stripped of your citizenship if this law were to pass?

          MadMonk,

          I'm scared too. I think a lot of people are. It seems like we have two enemies now. The terrorists and parts of the government.
          "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
          "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
          "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

          Comment

          • #65
            Yep, but the order would be stripped of your citizenship, secretly arrested, and then not given due process.
            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
            -Bokonon

            Comment

            • #66
              Ramo, what I'm trying to say is that people on the left here are trying to portray this as something totally new that Bush has come up with to turn the US into Nazi Germany, not realizing some of their favorite Presidents (Lincoln and FDR) have done similar things.

              I'm not condoning it, just pointing out the prior legislation didn't lead to Fascism, and neither will this.
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

              Comment

              • #67
                Fascism is a specific political system.

                Legislation like the Patriot Act and this new bill will lead to very bad things. Just as it has in the past. Whether "leftist" Presidents have done it or not is pretty much irrelevent.
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

                Comment

                • #68
                  Reminds me somehow of the Witch-Hunt for Communists during the McCarthy - Era
                  Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                  Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                  • #69
                    The sky won't fall. Blackshirts won't march in Washington. There will be free elections.

                    I still think it is a tempest in a teapot. I'd take the protestations more seriously if there wasn't such hyperbole attached to it.
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                    Comment

                    • #70
                      I don't think Bush is trying to turn the US into a fascist state in the sense that Germany was fascist. However, the legislation is very dangerous and could result in the US practicing fascism. My believe is if you give the government the right to do these things they will. And I guarantee you that they will be using this law against more people than the terrorists.
                      "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                      "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                      "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

                      Comment

                      • #71
                        Not to pick on you Duncan, but I'm amused by the lefties that look at this and say if you give the government an inch, they'll take a yard, but they don't apply this to government power over the economy.

                        Just an observation .
                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                        Comment

                        • #72
                          Hey, I thought you weren't an anarcho-capitalist
                          "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                          "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                          "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

                          Comment

                          • #73
                            I'm not... but I suscribe to the theory that if you give the government an inch, they'll take a yard, so you give the government as few inches as you can get away with.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment

                            • #74
                              You can't argue both ways. I won't let you get away with it
                              "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                              "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                              "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

                              Comment

                              • #75


                                I'm arguing one way and one way only. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
                                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                                Comment

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