American Foreign Legion part 2

[Pekka]

Jaakko, come on , tell me what you think about the original idea, and pros and cons. You managed to do a massive threadjack, now contribute to the original thread, please .

And note, that I don't completely disagree with you. I respect your views, we both hate the same criminals you're talking about. Only thing is, I think there is honorable way to do it too. You might think of me as a war junkie, action junkie etc. who wants to fight his enemies and willing to do some travelling, willing to kill enemies when they're not directly threatning me.
I think I'd be fighting enemies that ARE threatning me and my buddies, and other people are just too lazy to do travelling and fighting. Maybe they appreciate their property too much? What are their values? Are they not willing to die for their beliefs, and if not, is their lives worth even living?

[Jaakko]

Make no mistake, mercs didn't get their reputation for nothing. The tiny minority of decent (but misguided) people found in their ranks are no excuse to not condemn them as a whole.

To give you an idea of what kind of folks you're dealing with, where do you think many the butchers from various brushfire conflicts went when the situation turned bad?
African irregulars from the plethora of dirty little wars, various Yugoslavs from the mid-90's civil war, Latin American paramilitaries, "death squads", I'll give you one guess as to their employment these days.

As for the American Foreign Legion, I don't think it's that good an idea. The American society frankly doesn't need any more militarisation, nor does their army need such "expendable" military units of outcasts, desperate people and foolhardy yahoos. Foreigners can get into the US army as it is, and if you're that determined to get there, you shouldn't mind the extra trouble it takes.

[Pekka]

Finally, thanks for your comment on the topic .

Ok, let me just say that I agree that those are problems, that they become outcasts, desperate people etc. However, Americans are having hard time recruiting people as we speak. It's a problem. Also they have a thing called rotation, what is not known in our army (which sucks) .

Now they attack Iraq, what if NK decided to do some war? Enough men? Not nearly enough! Besides, we'renot talkinb about 200 000 men troops here. Maybe 20 000 or so. Even less. The point is, it's cheaper, and these people are also volunteers. And to make it so that they're not jsut desperate fools, it would only apply to certain 'safe' countries first, so they're not in it for the food. Also pay is low, so true mercs wouldn't be interested. Also I didn't suggest French model, where they are different from the French army. They'd be integral part of the US army. They'd be US army, just like the rest of them. Mixed up with US soldiers, so they won't become outcasts, and later on neutralized citizens, therefore American troops. They all fight under the same flag, with same officers. They all speak english. They are cheaper. Besides, no need for so big of a draft if there are also foreigners. Plus these people have the same requirements as the rest of them. They might have even experience, so that's a plus too. So, these troops are not 'expendable', sure maybe deplyoed easier.

And no, it's very tough to get in, because you need a green card. It's not that simple even if one is determined.

[Pekka]

BEsides, this is not making the US more militarized. As I said, it wold be a small help. Think about it. They could station in Germany for example, making soldiers now stationed there to have a vacation, shorter rotation. Also reserves wouldn't be necessary to call so soon.
Like I said, it's tough for the recruiters today in the US, they have to pay the soldiers salaries etc, it's expensive. They'd get cheap, quality soldiers more easily.

[Jaakko]

I'll admit there are militarily sound reasons for such a "legion", but I still disagree that it should be created.
Also, remember that such a unit is inherently antidemocratic. You're in effect proposing that a government that can't get enough volunteers from its citizens should use foreigners to fight the wars it wants to.

[Pekka]

The idea of it would be, that they want to become Americans. They'd have to give up their passports, also abandon their former armies, as it'd be illegal for many nationalities. So these people wouldn't be bunch of foreigners fighting Americas wars, it would be a group of former foreigners, soon to be neutralized, soldiers in American ranks, soon to be Americans.

[Jaakko]

The effect would be no different, though.

[Kramerman]

Jaakko, Muhammed Ali said he wouldn't fight in Vietnam because Vietnamese had done nothing to him personally, and was not his enemy. I don't feel the same way. I believe in solidarity, to help your friend. I think the best way to show your solidarity to friend is to step next to him and take everything that's coming, and give back.

Pekka sounds like a good man.. my level of respect for him is rising...

Jaakko - interesting points, but i must say i do not agree entirely.

[Pekka]

No one is forcing anyone to join. Also these people being from 'safe' countries makes it more so, that these people are just not outright poor to begin with. They have all the same requirements than the Americans have to enter the army. How is this bad for a person who wants to join, or bad for the US? It's only bad for the enemy .

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Kramerman
Jaakko - interesting points, but i must say i do not agree entirely.

Now that's what I call a discussion starter!

Pekka - It's not the unit's organisation itself that I'm criticising. What I'm objecting to is the loss of accountability when a government has a military unit that is independent of the public opinion. Ie. it could conceivably be used against US citizenry. I know it isn't a very realistic scenario in any foreseeable future, but it's still one of those things my principles won't allow a democratic state to have.

[Pekka]

Jaakko, don't think for a second that I don't want to hear your arguments, they're very valuable to me.

Now, I see bad stuff going on in the world all the time, news are full of it. Also I would like to be a soldier, and do combat (or comp sci student and future coder/super nerd). I'm thinking why should I be any different from those who are fighting. Why should they have to fight, and I get to live 'in the free world' and not contribute.
I think one should earn his ways, and to be proud of his actions. You know, pain is temporary, pride is forever.
So, I'm young, still in shape, able to do combat. Why shouldn't I do it? I can think of many reasons why I should, but can you come up with good reasons why NOT to go for it? Sure, world is ugly place, some people are unfortunate and have to fight for their survival, but why should I watch it from the tv and forget about it before I go to sleep? Why not just go, fight with the 'unfortunate' ones, defend my beliefs, take out few enemies. Then I can say and feel I have earned my place, I have really contributed to the common goal, and if I die in the way, well, at least I TRIED.

[Pekka]

How would it be independent from public opinion?
These would be soon-to-be-americans. Except no mothers are crying if they die. That's a benefit . They're not so much as a legion, but soldiers with flag in their sleeve, just like the next man who was born in texas.

Do you mean that some day gov could demand service from everyone, so they can keep citizenship?

[Jaakko]

Yeah, don't worry, we're having a good and interesting discussion.

As for your opinion, it's good for you. Personally, I see no inherent value in fighting. There are always some subset of people fighting a war somewhere, but as long as it's not an extreme case like WW2, I'm not going to go out of my way looking to participate. Looking out for wars to fight was never the idea of modern western society in any case.
Besides, I'm too cynical to believe that any world power acts out of anything else except self interest. It's a mistake to believe that any of us owe any debt of blood to other countries.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Pekka
How would it be independent from public opinion?
These would be soon-to-be-americans. Except no mothers are crying if they die. That's a benefit . They're not so much as a legion, but soldiers with flag in their sleeve, just like the next man who was born in texas.

Do you mean that some day gov could demand service from everyone, so they can keep citizenship?

No, rather that you'd have a part of the military that consists of non-Americans who want to be Americans, who could be much more easily used against American civilians. It would be easier because their only link to America would absolutely depend on the government that gives them orders.

[Pekka]

I agree to some extent, yes.

I would not go and promote my model to young kids anyway, I think it's bit weird too.
And you know, I have given you numerous of reasons why I should go and do combat, solidarity, what ever.
They are all good reasons for me, but to answer with one word why, I can't give you that, I don't know how to explain it, I just feel like it's for me, it's my destiny or something. I woudln't fight for anyone that is 'good', so maybe I'm contradicting myself, being hypocrite, fair enough.
I woudln't go half around the world to go in armed conflict with 100 on the other side and 500 on the other side. Forget it . If it paid good, maybe then though .

Sure, big powers are their to look out for their own intersts mostly. But my model gives everyone a piece of that. By fighting for it, you can become a citizen, thus enjoy the results. And no, I don't think I owe anything to anyone right now. I also don't think I have contributed anything. I just want to make the world little less unfair by joining to the fight if there is one and my buddies are on the other side, forced to fight. You see, many of these, US soldiers for example, want to be in the army, or whatever, but I don't think many of them wants to really do combat in the front lines or where ever the fighting is at its best. Many of them signed for doing the service, maybe getting some money or career, buddies, whatever. In this case, I'd be joining to show that there are willing people too, maybe saving someone from draft who don't want to fight but live a productive life with his family. Now I don't care about that, not yet anyway, the family stuff and safe life. So I'd be making someone a favour too.

But, can you answer the former question about my model of the 'legion', how would it be independent from public opinion?