American Foreign Legion part 2

[Az]

not necessarily. IIRC, the russians are looking for soldiers. Wouldn't want to be a Russian soldier though, these days. they beat their soldiers up. Plus, they're looking for veterans.

[Pekka]

Mercenary companies are a little bit different. They can be honorable too, but sometimes they're not. I give you that much. But they can do a good job too.

Mercs are individuals most of the times, they find each other in the place of action, group themselves and go offer their services. Every merc is a different person. Some are bad, some are not, but certainly most of them are useful in the war.
Look, not everyone is looking for 8-5 job with 30 days paid leave in a year. Some people think they need to do something for various of reasons. They think they can make a difference in that way and that way only. They want to do something with their lives that is out of the ordinary. They don't give a crap about secure jobs, house, car and a fence. They're not people who think 'what if'. Certainly they are not all bad. Fighting is fighting, some people fight for the other side, some with the others. Some people want the money, some people want to sleep their nights and choose with their conscious.

What do you think of our jaegars? They went to Germany, secretly, to learn how to fight. They went to Nazis to learn how to fight. Then they came back here, to teach others too. They had a deal. They were mercs in a way too. Some of them even fought in the ranks of Germans, to be able to fight the Soviets. Now, one of our most famous war heroes, Lauri Törni, aka Larry Thorne, went to Germany to fight the Soviets after we had lost the winter war. Just because he wanted to fight the enemy. After that he was pretty much jailed, but he escaped and went to the US. He then joined their army and went fighting in Vietnam, for 2 tours and became a legend in there too. Do you think he was a rotten person, lowest scum of the earth? Some people think he was. Certainly Soviets and perhaps Vietnamese thought so too. I think he was a hero.

edit: and people who commit atrocities are war criminals, mercs or regulars. I wouldn't go and make any difference between them. To some people it doesn't matter where you fight, it only matters who you fight, or who you fight with, and possibly what you can make out of it.
Soldiers is always someones enemy, always.. and someones buddy. It's like saying 'Karate is bad, because oyu learn it to kick random people in the head'. Well not exactly the same, but I'm saying you can't know peoples motivations.

[Jaakko]

The difference with being a merc is that one basically wants to go and kill other people for the action's own sake. Why don't you become a UN peacekeeper or something, there's plenty of chance for action, and it's in a well regulated military, and you might just end up doing some good.

As for Törni, I don't have a particularly high respect for the man. First he volunteers for the SS, then after the armistice he goes back to the Nazis, to prepare a resistance movement just in case Finland gets invaded anyway (sounds like some relative of the Werewolf organisation to me). After two escapes from captivity (British POW camp and Finnish jail, respectively) and a pardon, he finally reaches the US, where he joins the US military volunteers several times for missions in faraway countries, including Iran and Vietnam, where he died.
Sounds like an adrenaline junkie at least, but one with the presence of mind to join a real army. Too bad he was so cozy with the Nazis.

[Pekka]

Ok, I'll give more depth to my personal needs, and I don't mean to offend anyone, or to reveal myself to you too much. There are more to me than this.

I hate killing. I hate war. But I will kill if it is absolutely necessary. To save someone elses life, or mine. The difference is, I don't really care if the enemy is coming over the borders of my country. It is necessary to fight the enemy where the enemy is. Sure, you can always say they're not my personal enemies, what have they done to me.. but that's where we differ. I don't think that way. See that Estonia vs China example. I'm also fighting for my buddy, I don't care if they don't like me or think me as their friend. It matters to me what I think.
Early fight is the best fight. I'm not all for pre-emptive strikes, it sounds kind of.. bad.
If someone attacks Finland, I'll fight for us, no matter who the enemy is, even if it's Greenland. I don't care.
Outside Finland I get to choose who I fight, with more conscious. I get to fight the enemy I want to, the enemy that I have personal problems with. THis does not mean I'd go eat NK babies if I see one in Helsinki. I fight only enemies who are fighting too. Can't you see my point? .

[Jaakko]

I suspect you aren't going to have much of a future in the merc business then, unless you are willing to go pretty much anywhere for your buck and do pretty much anything to be around to use the buck.

If you do go and fight wherever you feel you must, the most likely fate for you is that you'll end up dead in an haphazard volunteer unit in your conflict of choice, because the country you're fighting in won't give a crap.

[Jaakko]

As a typical employment example, are you willing to go to a South American country for protecting a gun running operation to arm indigenous paramilitaries in an anti-drug operation?

[Pekka]

Jaakko, yes, but how can you consider him as a true Nazi? I think if the people in US thoght so, he wouldn't have had the chance to go up in their ranks too.
He was a fighter, who wanted to fight the enemy, where ever, when ever. He didn't join the Nazis because he wanted to kill Jews, or liked the Nazi ideology. He joined in, because he couldn't fight the Soviets in our ranks anymore. He wanted to continue fighting, he still considered them as enemy. He just didn't give up so easily. He didn't go kill random soldiers from our borders, he joined a real army, ok Nazi one. But he went to eastern front. Of course this was fighting against allied, but HIS point was fighting the Soviets, his own enemy.
He had a view of things close to mine. Fight the personal enemy where ever it is. It's not typical Finnish point of view though. I think our official view is pretty good. It's just not for me.

I really thought of just going to do some peace keeping for the UN. I have few friends who have gone through it. Now, it's not that simple. They can't do everything. Their power is very limited. Are they doing good? Sure, for some people. You always have lots of peace keepers, especially from Finland. Can you make a difference? Not really. There's nothing personal in there.
As a merc, I WOULD BE helping some people. The Swedish volunteers in here are heroes to me. They didn't have to fight, however they choose to fight with us, for us. I don't think they got paid that much either if at all. Look, I don't need the money, I can volunteer also. I don't want to be a merc, I want to fight for legal govs. I want to fight for the US mostly. I wouldn't want to go kick some asses in Somalia for example, but I'd love to get some action in Iraq or NK.

[Pekka]

Jaakko, I don't believe war in drugs. I don't like drugs, but I don't believe in the war, so no.

[Pekka]

Originally posted by Jaakko
I suspect you aren't going to have much of a future in the merc business then, unless you are willing to go pretty much anywhere for your buck and do pretty much anything to be around to use the buck.

If you do go and fight wherever you feel you must, the most likely fate for you is that you'll end up dead in an haphazard volunteer unit in your conflict of choice, because the country you're fighting in won't give a crap.

Most likely if I choose this path. I don't think it's all that bad though. I'm not looking love from my employer. Nor acceptance. It's enough for me to know that I'm doing something I believe in, that I died for something I thought was good enough to die for. That doesn't mean I want to die . But I think it's better to die in battle you believe, fighting the enemy, than having a stroke in your 80s, having not contributed to the world. And no, making code for some IT-company does not count in my views.

[Ned]

We already have a foreign legion. It's called the IDF.

[Jaakko]

I'm not saying that Törni was an outright Nazi, only that he had curiously little trouble helping them.

Then how about a job for on the behalf of an African government with interests in a diamond mining outfit, that wants you to train and lead a bunch of locals to clear out the troublesome villagers that are making a stink over the way the diamond business is ran?

[Pekka]

Jaakko, Muhammed Ali said he wouldn't fight in Vietnam because Vietnamese had done nothing to him personally, and was not his enemy. I don't feel the same way. I believe in solidarity, to help your friend. I think the best way to show your solidarity to friend is to step next to him and take everything that's coming, and give back.

[Pekka]

Sure, Törni did help some Nazis, but so did every Finn in the war in a way if you really think about it. Of course we disagree, since we didn't have choicese, and fought only one front. However, Törni wasn't thinking of helping Nazis or their cause (maybe), he was thinking about fighting the Soviets at that time.

and to answer that diamond question, maybe, if the government is good in my opinion and fair and for the people. And if I'd see the troublesome villagers really being enemies to the government, and they are warned. Sure. If they pay me enough for it. But if the troublesome villagers are pretty much innocent of bad stuff, then I would nto fight them, or train people to fight them. If they become more like guerillas, fighting legal gov with good intensions, then yes I'd fight them. If that's the last option though, I think a white boy like me would be a nice target in Africa .

[Jaakko]

Then that's another reason for you to avoid mercs, they have no such worries. It's all about the money.

Or would you like to go for a nice little invasion of a Pacific island, to kill the separatists that took over a copper mine that was very profitable for the government, but who couldn't quite get enough approval for an invasion with regular forces?

[Pekka]

I don't want to be merc. I just disagree that all mercs are bad and for the money ONLY. But I think it as a last option.. I still get to choose my side. And make money out of it. It's my decision why I fight, and nobody elses.
So if the cause is good, and I can make money out of it, I see no problems. And it's not about hero status, because that one I won't ever get. I just want to do something for me and if it helps someone else, that's good. Me, me me me! I won't go against my beliefs however. But no, I don't want to be a merc, I want to be a soldier. But if no one can offer me that, well I just have to go freelance.

Someone could talk about the topic also?

Jaakko, what do you think about the original idea?