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Originally posted by Frogger
I don't think they're bluffers, GP. In this matter, I think you guys are. They're ****ing lunatics, and I've always said that.
We're not bluffers. We haven't said that we would invade. We are not circumscribing our actions. Let this thing play out, Kitty. You got to take the long view.
Originally posted by Frogger
Korea II would be a serious war, unlike the ones you guys have fought recently and might in the near future. That would mean casualties, lots of them, and the real threat (according to the US itself) that Tokyo might be in for a surprise...
Gulf War 1 was supposed to be a serious war also...
i don't think anyone realistically thought Desert Storm was going to be anything but a landslide.
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Originally posted by orange
i don't think anyone realistically thought Desert Storm was going to be anything but a landslide.
You're wrong. Read the newsreports and editorials prior to the war. Especially from those on the left. 44 Democratic SEnators voted to FORBID Bush to prosecute the war. 45 voted against the authorization FOR the war. I was on active duty at that time. What were you doing?
Originally posted by orange
i don't think anyone realistically thought Desert Storm was going to be anything but a landslide.
You don't remember the "battle-tested Iraqi army"? The predictions of 10,000 American casualties? I'm not making this up. But of course I was reading the newspaper than. You were how old than?
Voting against a war is different than saying it is unwinnable or will cause massive casualties.
Even I would say that the Gulf War was going to be a landslide, and I'm pretty anti-war.
And I was in the 2nd grade But I'll remember that if we ever have a thread on World War II...as you weren't old enough to remember it, you shouldn't make comments on it.
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez
"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
Originally posted by orange
i don't think anyone realistically thought Desert Storm was going to be anything but a landslide.
That must be why they shipped all of those body bags along with the American army.
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For Desert Storm, or before that Iraqi army was in top 10 in the world... but got overrun like nothing, much easier than predicted. However NK is not a desert, for the war option, and for UN not working - it remains to be seen.
Russia has certaily got reasons for concern in the same way as US - and that is Chechens, they surely want nuclear weapons to be controlled in the similar way the westerners do, so I do not think they would be a problem, and it is not in China's interest either to have half controllable neighjbour with nukes, that can certainly reach them sooner than anyone else (important, like Russia or US)... so I would not be suprised that China steps in to do something about it.
I would first use up diplomatic options, see where Russia and China stand and why, as SK and Japan are definitley on our side. So all in all there should be other options than just a war in NK. Still it seems to me to be a much more urgent prolem than this Iraq WOMD. US and UN should be pushing on both fronts for inspectors and regaining some control.
Come on, how easy it is to hide nuclear reactors or stockpile once you get inspectors in who have the aid from the west? I don't think that's easy, and there has to be some other way to make them cooperate apart from war.
And could you explain why are weapons inspectors only half-effective?
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Originally posted by orange
Voting against a war is different than saying it is unwinnable or will cause massive casualties.
Even I would say that the Gulf War was going to be a landslide, and I'm pretty anti-war.
And I was in the 2nd grade But I'll remember that if we ever have a thread on World War II...as you weren't old enough to remember it, you shouldn't make comments on it.
1. Well if someone who was a WW2 survivor chooses to debate about what the national mood and expectations were at the time of the war...and you are basing your opinions on a Flotd-like knowledge of history from being a wargame buff, I may be a tad inclined to take his opinions a bit more seriously.
2. I'm not making this up, orange. Just read some Op-ed stories from the NYT from 1990.
3. My weapons officer, LCDR Nelson Moe, from SSN 665 was detached shortly before the war and was at Riyadh as part of the staff (strike planning). He gave us a brief shortly after the war had finished. The level of success was much greater than had been expected in August 1990, when planning started.
"The UN seems genuinely worried about this issue. Maybe we should work through them. NK has no real allies. If the Chinese were given a face saving way of reigning in NK I think they would jump at the chance. Perhaps facing a unanimous embargo would bring Kim back to his senses."
This is a sensible course of action. We don't need to get worked up about it. We should just say that they killed the treaty, now it's time for them to talk with the UN.
And keep the powder dry.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
I think after a successful war in Iraq, things will settle down. They are just getting a little frisky right now cause attention is directed elsewhere. They read too much Tom Clancy.
Originally posted by GP
You don't remember the "battle-tested Iraqi army"? The predictions of 10,000 American casualties? I'm not making this up. But of course I was reading the newspaper than. You were how old than?
Orange, GP is correct. There was wide-spread belief that Iraq would put up some kind of resistence. At first, I said they'd be clobbered by the US, but I let myself get beat-down by the "battle-tested Iraqi army" argument (in retrospect, I have to wonder why since I knew what both US and Iraqi military capabilities were). There were also lots of news stories about Iraq's modern equipment.
A lot of opposition to the war was because of the fear of American casualites.
From a certain PoV, though, it was absolutely brilliant. You downplay your own capabilities and then CRUSH your opponent. You seem even more powerful and invincible than if you had gone in from the beginging saying that it will be an overwhelming victory on the order of the Greeks at Marathon. So, was this the result of a successful disinformation campaign on the part of the US?
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Orange, GP is correct. There was wide-spread belief that Iraq would put up some kind of resistence. At first, I said they'd be clobbered by the US, but I let myself get beat-down by the "battle-tested Iraqi army" argument (in retrospect, I have to wonder why since I knew what both US and Iraqi military capabilities were). There were also lots of news stories about Iraq's modern equipment.
A lot of opposition to the war was because of the fear of American casualites.
From a certain PoV, though, it was absolutely brilliant. You downplay your own capabilities and then CRUSH your opponent. You seem even more powerful and invincible than if you had gone in from the beginging saying that it will be an overwhelming victory on the order of the Greeks at Marathon. So, was this the result of a successful disinformation campaign on the part of the US?
No. They were having a hard enough time getting domestic support and putting the coalition together.
Also, they would have had better plans to handle the Highway of Death angst and to conclude the war, etc.
You paranoid muther****er! That's not necessarily a bad thing, mind you, but you really are stretching things on that one!
However, the core of your argument is correct: the coalition forces (read: Nato... mostly the USA) came out looking even more powerful because of the initial fears of casualties, and then the total Iraqi collapse. I just don't think that it was staged, since the people who seemed most concerned about casualties pre-war were anti-war.
You paranoid muther****er! That's not necessarily a bad thing, mind you, but you really are stretching things on that one!
Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they really aren't out to get you. If you read up on the CIAs dirty tricks, you'd know they did a lot of disinformation in the past. Given that Bush Sr was head of the CIA at a time while this was still going on, it's not unreasonable to conclude that the US was doing it again (especially since we'd been doing it again under Reagan). The CIA had people to whom it fed stories at all the major media outlets in the US. I don't see why that wouldn't have still been the case.
As to GP's assertion that given the domestic opposition, they wouldn't have done that, it's a fair criticism, especially since I'm just engaging in speculation. On the other hand, since no one running for Congress, not even the hard core liberals made opposition to war a campaign plank, there wasn't too much danger of losing Congress, even when candidates were getting yelled at by their constituants for not taking a stand (I saw one old man tear into Ill. Senator Simon). I never believed for a second during the build up to the war that Congress was gonna stand up to Bush and say no (even if quite a few did vote against the resolution for war).
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
But I'll remember that if we ever have a thread on World War II...as you weren't old enough to remember it, you shouldn't make comments on it.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, mind you, but you really are stretching things on that one!
If you read up on the CIAs dirty tricks, you'd know they did a lot of disinformation in the past. Given that Bush Sr was head of the CIA at a time while this was still going on, it's not unreasonable to conclude that the US was doing it again (especially since we'd been doing it again under Reagan). The CIA had people to whom it fed stories at all the major media outlets in the US. I don't see why that wouldn't have still been the case.
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