What is more important than the Nation?

[DanielXY]

As Che said. I have more in common with some 10% of the pop in diffrent nations all over the world than with the other 90% sharing germany with me.
So no, I dont know why I should feel any loyality to germany. It isnt such a great country anyways ... should be more like holland ... that hits my needs best, but well I would (if I could ) change some things there too...

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by DanielXY
should be more like holland ... that hits my needs best

need for weed

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Are the French people better off for being part of the French nation? Was it a boon to be sent off to defend the nation in 1914?

They kept thier freedom.

[DanielXY]

Originally posted by statusperfect


need for weed

Yes...
among other things like compareable more freedom, no censorship, less bigots, more open-minded people, an overall more thoughtfull atemp to solve things
...
Yes I like it but there isnt any loyality for it either. No country ever I would fight for, fight only if given no other chance and even then only for myself (escape in a neutral country possibel? ... I go for it). Dont get it what ppl. drives to voluntary die for their fatherland...

[Az]

I am all for solidarity. I prefer a nation to nothing, since some solidarity between humans is better than none.

[Arrian]

Che,

Good breakdown of the concepts of "state" and "nation."

The Arabs are a good example of the differences between the two. Many dream of a pan-arab state stretching from Pakistan to Morocco. But for now at least they are divided up into many smaller states. The concept of nation is therefore a belief, not hard reality. Germany was for a long time a nation but not a state (pre-Bismarck).

So, what's more important? It obviously depends on your personal views on ethnicity, history, values, religion, etc. I am ethnically a mutt, as are many Americans (largest parts being English and Sicilian), I don't buy into any religion, I have a history degree which taught me all about the various idiotic reasons we humans set about killing each other (and how "leaders" keep managing to convince us to do it), and I strongly value individual rights/freedoms while hoping to balance them somehow with equality (both under the law and in the sense of equal opportunity in life).

I would place family, friends, personal well-being and my beliefs about right vs. wrong ahead of the concept of "nation." The question it really comes down to is this: would I willingly risk my neck for the good 'ole US of A? The answer isn't a simply yes or no. It depends. If I really believed our "way of life" was in danger, I would fight. Otherwise, nope, they'll have to draft me. One key part of this question is that in order for me to feel that our "way of life" was seriously threatened, it would not just be a war between the USA and another country. It would pretty much have to be a World War.

-Arrian

[Az]

a mutt?

[Arrian]

A mix of a bunch of ethnicities. We call dogs that have more than 2 breeds in them "mutts." Also known as "mongrels."

"Pedigree dogs look kinda good, but just go 'woof"
"And what do you think of the latest doggie situation?"
"Ahhh... woof. I like to meet other dogs."
"Whereas the mongrel dog, because a Lion ****ged a whippet, that's the one! That's the one who goes out, nicks your credit card and drives to the bahamas!" - Eddie Izzard

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Azazel
a mutt?

Many Americans describe themselves as mutts. I'm a standard American mutt, i.e., I have ancestors of multiple geographic origins: England, Italy, Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany, Wales, Spain (Sephardic Jew), Cherokee (or some other SE US Indian nation), and Mohawk (or some other NE Indian nation). My Irish ancestors can be traced back to Normandy, and from there to Scandinavia. My Italian ancestors might be from Germany and possibly Jewish at one point. So what am I? . . . A mutt.

[Bereta_Eder]

A bastard.

[Arrian]

A bastard.

*buzzer noise* Sorry, thanks for playing!

-Arrian

[Traianvs]

There is no tyranny of the mob in a healthy democracy.

Well I think democracy is turning more into an ochlocracy (is that a correct word in English? ). See for example what unions can do nowadays... a company that has a factory somewhere that has a deficit, and wants to get rid of it will find it very hard to do so, because the unions (that represent the mob) have power so that the workers won't lose their jobs or so (which is stupid of course since the factory is eating up a huge budget of the company). You could say that's good, and it is!! but if it goes to extremes it's not so good .

I remember that the US for example is a fine place to sue big companies for millions because of futile reasons. Ok, the mob doesn't really control everything, but these sort of evolutions in which the mob abuses its (limited) power are simply a bad thing... they can ruin companies! (not that i'm a capitalist (far from it) of course but you know what I mean)



What's more important than the nation is of course relative...
I would say basic needs in order to live such as a heated home, and enough food (that's what most people in this world think is most important). History has proven that people don't really care whether an ******* rules the country (such as Sharon, Bush, Saddam, Berlusconi etc etc...), they won't do uprisings and stuff...

Now when the population is starving due to bad harvests or other extremities such as oppression (Palestine...) they will revolt... i reckon that says it all about human behaviour... Hell wasn't it so that before the French Revolution there was a bad harvest? what a coincidence! (Of course I'm not saying that was the reason of the revolution but it heated up the peasants a bit I believe )

Of course, that's not always the cause of a bad harvest, the population has to be able to stand up of course... it is simply a very important detail whether ppl have food and shelter from whatever danger (cold, floods, oppression...) or not! Especially in earlier cultures this was the primary objective (In Mesopotamia, the ground was easily salted (don't know English word for it), due to overirrigation so the ground was worth ****... It sometimes cause entire populations to build new settlements).


All the rest (although maybe important for us) is secondary

[Az]

Thanks Che, Arrian

( oy, shaigitz.... )